Round-table Discussion: Too Tough to Die and Out for Blood

[Doomdog]

One thing I love about this game is the variety of decks you can build that are both effective at doing their thing and fun to play. While I can see the merits of your seasonal cycles proposal, I feel it would put me off that format as the card pool depth wouldn't be enough to support more than a couple of working archetypes for each faction, with little difference between decks of the same faction.

[Blargg]

I think this is the fundamental difference in our positions. I don't see how making card cuts is alienating anyone. Personally, I would look forward to a cut. These games are made better by removing cards, not worse.

Your generalization at the end there sort of flies into the face of the whole "Expandable" card game genre.

Rotation loses players in every game, you just hope you'll make up at least as many new players than you lose old ones. They are alienated because the products they bought can't be used, or because their favorite things get cut, or because a rotation is just a clean time to stop keeping up since their current set is all legal together.

Magic does have more cards in standard. I don't think that really matters though. Doomtown was fun out of the core with ~150 cards. I would gladly redo that experience with a balanced (IE: gadgets not trash) cut to core 2.0.

The argument here was not that we should be as big as Standard, but to indicate what other successful card games consider a full card pool. DTR deck building requires more cards, across different values, for the same variety of deckbuilding. I don't think we're there.

Core set had maybe one or two viable decks per faction. It was really, really boring well into the first cycle and pine box.

The assertion that marketing / product release isn't a very important factor for getting people in on these games is completely false.

This isn't what I said. Retailers are not going to evangelize Doomtown, they already didn't do it or if they did they saw the game get cancelled in spite of their efforts.

New players aren't going to pick it up spontaneously because it's not going to get conspicuous retail shelf space, if it manages to get any at all.

What might happen is the current player base will continue to promote the game among their peers. Even your anecdote above has nothing to do with marketing or rotation, but word of mouth.

Also, $70 for a complete core playset is the cheapest expandable card game I can think of off the top of my head. DTR is $80 at MSRP, so was Star Wars. Netrunner, AGoT (1.0 and 2.0), L5R are all $120.

[Ironcache]

My local meta is 4 players. Really, only 1 other player in that is any good at the game.

I guess it boils down to what people want. I want the game to grow and potentially have someone else I can look forward to playing this game against. My solution is not perfect, but nothing anyone else has put forward will aid on this front, I am certain.

[Will]

I have been hesitant to weigh in on this topic as a Lot of my thoughts are well known to the people who frequent the forums.
1. I like the idea of going to tombstone but the story needs to return to Gamorra
2. I don't like the rebranding of factions as I feel it waters down the story elements of the game . I love the game because every game tells a story now I could be wrong and every new outfit will have a ton of fleshed out dudes that help create a narrative for games that supports that outfit (Bayou Vermilion Railroad i am looking at you)
3. I don't like how generic Abomination ( or should I say dudes?) cards are being printed but they are unique . I am happy a Skin walker is showing up but it should have a name and a "backstory"
4. I think every faction in the game needs "theme " that doesn't have a skill attached to it ( this is mostly for new players )
5. More exp dudes lol or at lest 1 for EW and 108 right ?
6. I worry about power creep ( that new condition in. Too tough to die is nutters for me )
7. A cheap learn to play set for new players .
8. A Community organization system similar to the old AEG Bounty Hunter program
9. I have A Lot more but think I should shut it down as I tend to ramble .
10 . More stuff for the fancy hat deck lol

[Harlath]

My local meta is 4 players. Really, only 1 other player in that is any good at the game.

I guess it boils down to what people want. I want the game to grow and potentially have someone else I can look forward to playing this game against. My solution is not perfect, but nothing anyone else has put forward will aid with that, I am certain.

i hope you're able to help others improve - thanks for trying to grow your local environment. The tournament success I've enjoyed in Doomtown was largely a product of my local playerbase helping everyone improve.

I also trust that we've all got the game's best interest at heart, even where we disagree on the detail. For example, I think some of the other ideas in this thread have merit (e.g. alternate formats like 2 base sets and a choice of 1 pinebox, 1 saddlebag and 1x playset of another card) for drawing in new players. I don't want to dismiss ideas and it's also important to keep the existing player base interested and happy - Doomtown's players are great in my experience and they're the game's best recruiting tool.

Example decks are a great idea if Pinebox/Pinnacle can find a way to make them work. A good way to get people in at an attractive price.

@Will - I'm a bit more forgiving of the unnamed Unique abominations as Classic did the same thing in places (e.g. Terrormental) but it would also have been cool if they'd been given names. Presumably these dudes are unique to Tombstone, so they might get named in future fiction.

[Ironcache]

The 1-1-1-1 format existed in Netrunner for a long time (and we know where Netrunner is). What is the proposed differentiation?

I'm not trying to be dismissive. But I do strongly believe that following what every other LCG has done will get you where every other LCG is.

[Benni]

I love what new possibilities To Tough to Die brings in terms of deck building and options for diversity. Off course, it’s to early to know the impact it’ll have on Tourny diversity, but at the very least I expect that not every aggro, shooty deck will need to pack 4 Kidnappin’, which, I consider an improvement
(I already consider the Doomtown spread of decks and factions played to be impressively diverse).

As many other places, we also struggle with a limited player base and while the buy-in for a new player is steep, I do appreciate the increase of the card pool amount.
Rumor at Worlds in Manchester was that the winning deck would be released as a separate, single pack. Might still be the plan? I like the idea here for especially new players and I can easily see this idea expanded to be a faction deck pack; including a complete deck and additional X cards with which you could alternate it slightly to your preference. Price range could probably be around the old saddlebags.

[Harlath]

tes playing out to where each faction gets 1 dude for each of their themes each set. It will continue to limit

The 1-1-1-1 format existed in Netrunner for a long time (and we know where Netrunner is). What is the proposed differentiation?

I'm not trying to be dismissive. But I do strongly believe that following what every other LCG has done will get you where every other LCG is.

I don't think it is the 1-1-1-1 format that did for Netrunner (I'd marginally prefer 2-1-1-1), so it seems a good idea to borrow alternate format ideas from other games.

I'm pro alternate formats to help welcome new players in, pre-constructed decks and exciting new expansions to keep existing players engaged and recruiting people.

[AndrewMoul]

I strongly second the concept of a run of pre-constructed decks (1 for each faction) where you'd put a playable deck in the hands of the player for $15-20. Of course this strategy almost entirely requires the retail model if you hope to get a crop of new players involved.

Where I feel this idea could really shine is if the decks were printed with 52 cards and a joker, and perhaps 15-20 additional cards where the player could change out 1 or 2 of the values. Any additional customization would come via buying the expansions.

If core sets are still available, another idea could be to put alternative or new jokers in the pre-cons which might entice people to at least buy into the core set for the jokers.

All ideas that could be tweaked.

[Antaiseito]

I said it before, but i also think that affordable faction starter-packs with playable decks and maybe a few cards to tweak could be a great thing to introduce the game to friends.

I know i would want to gift every sensible person i know one.
A whole core set without a starter/guideline can be a pretty daunting object for someone that's not used to LCGs.
For a retail product it's maybe necessary to offer a broad range of options, but as others have said before, in a niche scene like us, maybe starting people with a single understanable and to them interesting faction is the right and more affordable entrypoint.

I also don't think that cutting cards works for Doomtown. Most suites/values have a few card choices per theme. If you cut old packs away it will just become less interesting with all the deckbuilding restrictions in place already.
For the local meta with people that don't play online i already use the 1 core+1 saddlebad+1 expansion or something similar already, so games feel fair and fun.
But it won't help the scene to force everyone else to play in a specific way like this in official tournaments imo.

[SavageJack]

After seeing @Thunderforge's question on the forums, I would love an outfit (or legend) that "takes" ghost rock from my opponent (my Plasma Drill deck dreams may live again).

On the note of repacking cards, as @Antaiseito said, Doomtown's card value system reqires a bigger card pool. Sure, some cards compete for the same slot (hydro-puncher and auto-revolver for instance) but a lot of values lack that sort of redundancy.

I will say, if Pinebox/Pinnacle want to make some extra money they could release print-n-play pdfs of the original sets. I try to run 12+ decks off of 1 collection, and there are a few cards that I need some extra copies of. I don't want to spend 15$ to get some extra Outgunned (or 26$ for a 3rd base set), but I would spend half that to get a print-on-demand version so I no longer have to proxy in more Shadow Walks and Holsters. I don't even think it will affect sales of the physical game, since anyone not looking to purchase the cards is just playing online anyway.

[jordan_caldwell]

SavageJack,
I want to respond directly to your comment about the (locked) Rules Question that included some background which spoilered the now-canned idea of printing the original Sloane / Outlaw home as "taking" ghost rock. I also want to say that the original Sloane Gang is an awesome and thematic ability in it's own right.

Thematically, Protection Racket is aligned with this design goal. Call it "occupying" or grab a thesaurus and find a different word (the whole "control but do not own" concept). Cash for occupation.

That all said, and this would be an ask / idea of / for the new designer Rich Carter and his team, perhaps there is some design space to for the "taking" concept - similar to the card This is a Holdup! - as I believe that, properly balanced, the game has such robustness as that could be the dedication of some Core card - Outfit, Legend, or Deed - with an Outlaw theme.

Cheers!

[Thunderforge]

I will say, if Pinebox/Pinnacle want to make some extra money they could release print-n-play pdfs of the original sets. I try to run 12+ decks off of 1 collection, and there are a few cards that I need some extra copies of. I don't want to spend 15$ to get some extra Outgunned (or 26$ for a 3rd base set), but I would spend half that to get a print-on-demand version so I no longer have to proxy in more Shadow Walks and Holsters. I don't even think it will affect sales of the physical game, since anyone not looking to purchase the cards is just playing online anyway.

Print & Play PDFs of past sets would be great! I would love to have some extra cards of a few of these, and for casual games, that would be just fine. Heck, you could even add errata into those PDF cards. This would also be a nice way to help international gamers and new players get in the game.

It would still make sense to disallow proxy cards for tournaments. But I thing there is an untapped market that would be filled by offering those past sets as PDFs.

[Thunderforge]

Now that Kung Fu decks with First Peoples are a thing, I'd like to see outfits for that faction that don't involve Spirits and/or Totems.

Right now, our only choices are Eagle Wardens and The Spiritual Society, which are both "neutral" choices that work whether Kung Fu is in your deck or not. The other two outfits are Beyond the Veil and Gateway to Beyond, both of which key off of Spirits/Totems, making them poor choices for Kung Fu decks. I'd like to see any future outfits either be neutral, to support them, or to outright key off of Kung Fu.

Speaking of Kung Fu, I'd like to see an equivalent of Pigging Out and Run Rabbit Run for the Tao of the Bull Demon King.

[Neramoor]

You can play BtV with kung fu decks even if you don't intend to cast any totems, you still get he influence and the movement effect along with 19GR. The only time it comes back to bit you is against another first people deck. You have to play some shaman but you were probably doing that anyway as all the EW cheap dudes are shaman

[cadavaca]

You don't get the influence or movement bonuses from Beyond the Veil without Totems.

[Doomdog]

I think what was meant is that you can still bring totems you don't intend to ever cast. Silver Pheasant's Bounty, for example, turns on your home trait and ability and gets you more GR, without ever needing a Shaman pull.

[jayjester]

What has been accomplished:

I see so many more starting options, especially for factions that have had a difficult time affording the influence most players feel comfortable starting with. I see some really interesting tech cards that are much more than simply silver bullets. Having more options to deal with over use of hand rank manipulation, casualty boosting, hit and run tactics, and Landslide will make sure the game doesn’t become too pularized or stale.

What I would like to see more of:

This may be heavily influenced by what I personally like in games. I would like more keyword interaction. More ‘faction loyal’ type dudes (like Morgan Lash), but with lower cost dudes, and more than just discounts. I want some more Cheating Resolution gadgets. More faction/skill/keyword specific goods.

I think having some prebuilt decks could really help players get into DTR. I’m really interested to find out what these super secret projects are that I’ve only heard mention that something is being worked on.

[jayjester]

Had to add this because I just thought of it. I want Kung Fu Fearmongers.

[davido4015]

^^^ with claws