Let's talk about the next set!

Expansions & Spoilers
23

If and when Hattie gets Exp for law dogs I see some dog fu in my future lol

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24

I also like the idea of Morgan getting some Shammy goodness also I would like to see the full moon brotherhood get some as well ( if that aspect of the fiction even exists still as we haven’t really talked about if we will ever return to home to Gomorrah and all the people that were left behind )

25

I’d like another “hard” cheatin’ resolution on a different value than 2, 4, 8, J, or Q.

By “hard” I mean “shootout winnin’” and by “shootout winnin’” I mean “when the difference in hand ranks between your and your opponent’s hand rank is 1 to 3 ranks or more and you surprisingly play this card without having to meet cute prerequisites to otherwise ace, discard, send home, or similarly disable a critical mass of their posse’s dudes so as to be the remaining posse standing”

To that end, out of the selection of cheatin’ resolutions below, we have 5 (bolded) that meet this “hard” criteria:

A - Inner Struggle, Pair of Six-shooters
2 - Bottom Dealin’
3 - Fool Me Once…
4 - Coachwhip!
5 - Lighting The Fuse, An Accidental Reunion
6 - Disarm, One Good Turn…
7 - Comin’ Up Roses, Lemat Revolver, Grim Servant O’ Death
8 - This’ll Hurt in the Mornin’, Quickdraw Handgun
9 - Cheatin’ Varmint, Magical Distraction
T - Moving Forward, Jael’s Guile
J - Flight of the Lepus
Q - It’s Not What You Know…, Martyr’s Cry
K - Deliberate Infection, Rich Man’s Guard Dog, The Winning Agenda

…

When it comes to building standard (three-value) decks, I generally either include one of these values (2, 4, 8, J, Q) precisely for access to that cheatin’ resolution on-value, or else run 'em off-value.

So yeah, another one would be nice. I can suggest the values A, 3, 5, 9 or T.
Cheers!

4 Likes
26

Excellent post @jordan_caldwell , touching not just on an ability that could be good for the game (strong shootout cheatin’ punishment) but considering appropriate values too. :thumbsup:

27

Being a minion on team play test, I have to be EXTREMELY careful in posting here. After such a well constructed post, I do want to respond.
I’ll add that I’ve seen Comin’ Up Roses and The Winning Agenda be very strong Hard C.R. in the right situations. Especially Comin’ Up Roses when flushes are practically guaranteed, and a flush becomes a straight flush at HR 11. Attachment C.R. cards can be awkward since opponents can see a C.R. ready to happen. Still, a Quickdraw Handgun can prevent your opponent from playing a cheating 5 of a kind, which is great too.
So, thank you for your contribution to the discussion, and all I can say is, as you can see Harlath and Emree are listening, and posts like yours are highly valuable.

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28

I would argue that this will hurt in the morning and bottom dealing are not " Hard" cheating punishment given the criteria you gave earlier in your post as there is a element of a luck in their use . I worry about Hard punishment cards being available at every value of the game I don’t think every archetype should have access to Hard C.R cards being on value but then the nature of the game makes it so you have to choose which cards you use and which you don’t so perhaps my fears are unfounded . But this long rant is not what I set out to do what would you like the cheating card to do Jordan ?

29

I think a lot of the “soft” Cheatin’ Punishments work best in lowball as a recursive punishment against really tight draw structures.
Stacking copies of Inner Struggle or Fool Me Once (Fool Me Twice?) over a few turns can be really helpful in the late game where you give your opponent a -2 hand rank all day (and then take all his deeds) or refill your hand after every Cheatin’ hand (and then you draw a “hard” Cheatin’ Punishment to follow up with). On a similar note Lighting The Fuse, Disarm, Consecration, Soul Cage, and the Devil’s Six Gun can put your opponent in a bad position until sundown which can help in the larger game.
I also think that cards like One Good Turn and The Winning Agenda, while not cards with a bite, do become more tantalizing due to their secondary ability (One Good Turn is my contender for “best designed card in Doomtown”).

If I had to help give cheatin’ resolutions more bite I would probably add a card that lets you play 2 Cheatin’ Resolutions (with different names) on a single cheatin’ hand. Cheatin’ Varmint and Quickdraw Handgun aren’t that great, but playing both together would be crazy. Of course this hypothetical card would have to be faction neutral, and picking a value would be hard, so perhaps a Legend would work best. Maybe someone who known for being honest. Like Andrew Lane?

5 Likes
30

From a toolkit perspective, I see Cheatin’ punishment come in three general types: Hard, Soft, and Mixed.

Hard punishment is for winning the shootout now, useful especially for repelling an aggressive deck using spot removal against you, or attacking a deck now that needs time to set up it’s pieces before they fall into place.

Soft punishment is for exploiting an opponent’s tight structure (or bad luck on draws) to gain some board advantage, but doesn’t alter the outcome of a shootout it is played in. Generally a card you expect to play to give yourself an edge over the long game.

Mixed punishment lies between these two, now acting as both hard and soft, now acting as either hard or soft depending on the context it is played in.

I think it’s also worth noting that I don’t think many CRs fit neatly into one category without considering the deck they are situated in, the match-up they are set before, and the pilot’s pre-conceived or developing game plan. For example, as Will mentioned above, Bottom Dealin’ has it’s luck factor reduced the looser the deck it hails from, and similarly This’ll Hurt in the Morning loses it’s punch the tighter the deck it is played against, and many CRs can be one or the other depending on how exactly you use them (do you boot their shooter in lowball with Coachwhip!, or do you wait for them to come fight you in hopes that they cheat!?)

Anyhow, my opinion is that the game is ready for another of the former on a different value than 2, 4, 8, J, Q. I’m not sure what I would want it to do exactly, except as loosely defined as “hard” to render other values as for meeting this deck-construction benchmark.

In deck-building with my playgroup, there have been several instances where we have worked out a new deck almost all the way through, then proceed to situate the deck with CRs only to find that all the “hard” ones are already dispersed across different decks!

A new idea: Reprint a tried-and-true “hard” CR (such as Coachwhip!) under a different value?

Cheers!

1 Like
31

Also One of the things I loved about the original doomtown was the werewolves and the vampires that floated around in the background and the idea that the full moon brotherhood would have werewolves was very exciting for me so I would like that in some form. ( perhaps a Skinchanger for EW ? Or a neutral abomination )

2 Likes
32

Agree here - Abominations helps fuel the Weird West side of the game and make for great stories, whether it’s the Golden Mare vampires in Classic or stories that come about during individual matches.

I’ll confess that a not insignificant fraction of my enthusiasm for the game continuation is a desire to see the Full Moon Brotherhood some more abominations that its mechanics and flavour cry out for.

Some high quality discussion on different types of cheatin’ punishment above, both in terms of expanding cheatin’ punishment available while also restricting certain types of punishment to certain values. Throwing ideas in here is really helpful as the more sources of feedback on the game the better (while remaining aware that some play types/regions won’t be offering feedback and trying not to overweight forum posts just because they’re easy to access!). :slight_smile:

33

As far as cheating punishment goes I like the idea of a cheating punishment that Aces a non Unique Card in play

34

Also I like the idea of that being a 5 value though I am sure there could be a much more balanced value

35

That idea sounds a lot like Disarm from TCaR :slight_smile:

36

I was hoping for it to also Ace non-unique dudes and deeds . ( not that I don’t love disarm it’s a super fun card )

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37

So who knows when we will be previewing the next set lol I mean March is almost here

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38

Fingers crossed the powers that be will share things when the time is right.

Glad people are excited about Too Tough to Die and appreciate the fan base’s patience.

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39

I just hope the time between “here are some spoilers” and “give us your money so we give you all the spoilers” is relatively short. I was really excited to start making proxy decks with all the spoilers last year, but I ended up taking a hiatus on the off chance that the next spoiler would solve my jank problems (the 4th ring dudes stand out, they are amazing together but until you know they are coming Zeb seems kinda weird)

Also I really hope there is a card called Too Tough to Die in the set, maybe as a way to harrow dudes.

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40

Now that we know that we’ve lost Drews Soul too evil I hope he hooks up with Margaret Hagerty and it’s a love story…

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41

I remember the AEG era L5R used to preview a given clan’s cards in an expansion together, so that might be something for me to feed back to the Pinebox guys, thanks. :slight_smile:

42

Hello! Great post I’m happy to see it. I have joined the community just to contribute to it.

I would like to suggest: more shootout abilities, even if they’re trivial (i.e. -1 to one dude’s bullets). Ideally they should be less situational (i.e. Adrian Vallejo’s) so that they taking place often.

The reasonning behind my suggestion is that we found that too many shootouts just go “pass” “pass” draw and straight to resolution instead of being action packed and exciting. I would like The noon and shootout resolution phases usually see way more action that the shootouts.

I did notice a trend with new shootouts actions being printed and I really enjoy it. I would like to see more, especially on dudes.

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