Hot Lead Flyin': detemining value of "each dude you discarded or aced"?

Rules Questions: Doomtown
1

Another question whose answer, I’m pretty sure, is lost to the AEG forum demise (I’m not seeing a ruling in the FAQ, rule book, forum postings, or community compilations of old rulings…).

Because my brain is seemingly melting down this week, I also have two timing/reference/“targeting” questions about niche cases. Thank you for your continued dedication. If you are coming to Philadelphia, I will bring/buy you beverages… .*

Hot Lead Flyin’ reads:

React: After you take casualties for losing a round of a shootout, pull. For each dude you discarded or aced as a casualty this round with a value higher than the pull, the winner takes 1 casualty.

Example of play:

It is the “Take Casualties” step. I have no cards left in my draw deck. I am the loser**, and are forced to take two casualties, which I assign to, say, the ever-expendable Xiodan Li (who is 2-value and Kung Fu 2), who has a Rapier attached (increasing his value by a further 1), and the even more expendable Gunslinger Token (Ace-value.)

The “Take Casualties” step being finished, it is now my react window to play “Hot Lead Flyin’”. I do.

After you take casualties for losing a round of a shootout, pull.

I go to pull, but my deck is empty. Per The Rules (p. 11), I shuffle my deck; then, I pull. The pull is a 2 (let’s say any 2 other than the discarded Xiodan Li, for perversity’s sake).

For each dude you discarded or aced as a casualty this round with a value higher than the pull, the winner takes 1 casualty.

Okay, clear enough. I just need to compare the value of the pull (2) with the value of my discarded dudes. Which is… oh.

Questions

  • When does the player resolving Hot Lead Flyin’ determine the value of “each dude you discarded or aced”?

  • When that time comes, how does a player determine what those values are?

Because my teacher ‘encouraged’ not asking questions without trying to work out the answer first…

My attempted answer to q. 1 is: “Actions’ effects are resolved, sentence by sentence, in order of effect. After completing sentence one by pulling, I proceed to resolve sentence two. This presents me with a condition that needs to be checked to determine the effect. So I need to determine the value of the dude who was discarded as a casualty after I have made the pull.”

My attempted answer to q. 2 is: "Since I am determining value now, I need to determine the card’s value as it is now.*** I do so by checking the dude’s stat (“targeting” and thereby “affecting” that dude in the process). Since the dude is now no longer in play, no Kung-Fu or Rapier bonus for him!

…but, in this corner-case, neither dude is in my discard pile (or Boot Hill). Since I cannot reference / “target” a card in my deck (without instructions to search my deck to find something), there is no legal target. Accordingly, I have no dude who I discarded as a casualty with a value higher than the pull."

***Other Potentially Relevant Reference

Takin’ Ya With Me, FAQ entry,

Take the value at the point the card is resolved (ie, the dudes are in Boot Hill with no modifiers). There is no card memory.

** Truer words were rarely typed…

*Why yes, this is a continuation of my unhealthy obsession with the Allie Hensman (Exp. 1) and the obscure and mind-numbingly tedious pedantry with which I attempt to parse how stats are determined by reference to dudes. How could you tell? :wink: :cry:

1 Like
2

Seen and under review by RT

5

This card is under review. The initial version of the card checked against the value of the dudes that were in play, but the errata’d version of this card presents a mechanical problem, as you point out. And so, we are considering our options with this.

2 Likes
8

After a bit of discussion, this is how we plan to proceed. The initial question you posed shows there’s a bit of uncertainty on how to resolve card effects that seem to target cards that can end up back in your deck. There’s a few ways this can happen, even beyond HLF, but they seem to revolve around the initial state of “your deck is empty, and your discard is going to be shuffled back into your deck, but now you need to resolve an ability, with respect to a card(s) that’s now in your deck.”

The resolution of this, will include a new entry for the Rules Compendium, regarding “Decks, Discard Pile, and Boot-Hill” expanding on what’s currently included in the rulebook for section 2.2.

To be included:
A player’s discard pile and boot hill are public knowledge, meaning a player can check or reference against the stats (Value, Bullets, Bullet Type, Influence, Control Points, Ghost Rock cost, Upkeep, Card Type, Faction affiliation or Drifter status) or keywords of a card in their or their opponent’s Discard Pile or Boot Hill.

However, a player’s deck is not public knowledge. Once a card enters a player’s deck, the stats (listed above) or keywords of any card there cannot be checked or reference against by another card ability, unless that card ability instructs to ‘search your deck’ for a card meeting some criterion.

To your questions above:
Q. When does a player resolving Hot Lead Flyin’ determine the value of “each dude your discarded or aced”
A. We take the answer from the Rules Compendium here (pg. 11 under Step 5 of Shootouts): The loser of the round first chooses all their dudes that will become casualties and what will happen to them. After nominating all their casualties, each casualty is resolved one at a time. Reactions to the loser taking casualties (Takin’ Ya With me, Hot Lead Flyin’) are played after the loser finishes.

Q. When that time comes, how does a player determine what those values are?
A. Check against the printed value of the dudes you discarded or aced, that are now in your Discard Pile or Boot Hill. However if some (or all) of those dudes in your discard pile somehow got shuffled into your deck from a card ability (The pull of HLF for example), those dudes now in your deck are ineligible targets for you to compare the pull value from HLF to their values, since you cannot freely check the card-values of cards in your deck. However, if you have any casualties that resulted in dudes that were aced, and are now in your Boot Hill, or casualty dudes that are in your Discard Pile, check the pull value against them.

Hopefully this clarifies, thank you for your patience while we’ve been deliberating this. If there’s any follow up questions, please feel free to post a new thread with the question.

5 Likes