I like the current meta as a whole. Why do I say that there is no deck in the environment that just wins every game face it there isn’t. Why is that a good thing because in this day and age if there is a unbeatable deck two options develop one you play that deck or you build the anti deck ( which makes your deck weaker against other match ups). Right now there are option with every outfit some good some bad ,but what is happening we as a community are developing strategy against x amounts of deck (which is good advice for vets and new players so when building we have to think about known deck types and counters). With this being an ECG every saddlebag will hurt or help certain decks which is good because a stale game is a bad game what was good in July may not be as good in August due to 2 or 3 cards in a saddle bag.
[quote=“Woad, post:20, topic:189”]
I will say however that the game is still in its infancy.[/quote]
So many times I’ve heard that, yet I always fail to understand how this answers any of the questions asked.
“Devs are rushing to introduce new mechanics and factions before unlocking the full potential of recently introduced novelties” - “The game is still at its infancy.”
How does that address the question at all?
Like what? We on octgn experiment with a lot - A LOT - of ideas and come up with really weird, interesting and fun decks. My complaint is that they are not very competitive - you cannot make them competitive with the current card pool. Not because of lack of dedication.
I did not understand this passage. Are you saying that 4R shooter decks are too straightforward and limited in their approach, and if you refuse to engage them directly they cannot do anything? Or what? I think that a 4R shooter deck is quite capable of dealing with landslide or control or whatever.
As a person who’s played a lot of FFG LCGs competitively from their infancy, this is a really weird thread to me. Of course, there are going to be decks and archetypes that are better than others. Of course there are going to be new cards introduced that don’t support existing archetypes or even create new ones that supersede them. There’s going to be stuff introduced that is never competitive, and stuff that becomes competitive a year later, and stuff that comes out of the box and will have everyone asking “why would they print this? Didn’t they know it would be OP?”
As the player pool expands the number of competitive minded players will increase (though not necessarily per capita) and the competitive scene will get better at distilling the card pool into optimized deck strategies. This is the nature of games, especially competitive card games. People dig for optimal solutions and strive for things like consistency and control over their deck. Cards will be used in creative ways, with combos and ideas the designers didn’t interpret (they’re not perfect, game design is incredibly difficult, and they’re doing a pretty good job so far).
I suppose this sentence could be redone to “It took Netrunner, one of the most praised card games ever, more than a year to make some of its core concepts viable so just pray that you luck the hell out and the answers to all your non competitive decks problems just show up in the next month cause i’m looking at the calendar and we have not even made it to year one yet”
I’m not saying you don’t. But nobody is bringing anything to the tournament scene that even remotely attempts to challenge the current kings. Which personally i find odd cause half the time I look at some of these tournament results and think to myself. “How can it be that the desolation row deck which not only has one of the worst econs in the game but is also the most predictable deck in the entire game not have an answer?”
The passage is me finding humor that one of the top tier decks is literally a deck that counters people bringing the same type of deck to the table. The deck is designed to beat strong structure full house/ 4 of a kind decks that rely almost entirely on beating you with a shootout hand in order to win. Which means that there are enough people bringing that kind of deck to tournaments for this deck to beat it. Weather it is good against landslide (it is) or is good against control (40/60) wasn’t the point. For all intents and purposes 4R shooter is basically a more competent version of the super mario deck. It say “oh what a shame no kill affects boot affect removal affects movement or presence of any kind guess i win.” and while that deck is nowhere near as good as the 4R shooter deck it gives the same kind of straightforward run of the mill decks trouble.
I’ll interpret this as “I hope that we will get more useful gadgets, miracles, and aboms, before new factions show up” plus “Core set and the first two cycles were developed all at once, so we’re not yet at the point of time when we start seeing cards designed to address meta problems”.
[quote=“Woad, post:24, topic:189”]
But nobody is bringing anything to the tournament scene that even remotely attempts to challenge the current kings.[/quote]
You speaking about which meta exactly? Cause I believe I saw a couple Quaterman decks that won some tournaments, and some other stuff. Plus every tournament report shows gadgets and Oddities and whatnot in the middle of the standings and above.
[quote=“Woad, post:24, topic:189”]
the desolation row deck which not only has one of the worst econs in the game[/quote]
Desolation Row? The outfit that gives 2-4 gr each turn? The one that is more popular than the classic Allie build because it gives more money?
[quote=“Woad, post:24, topic:189”]
For all intents and purposes 4R shooter is basically a more competent version of the super mario deck. It say “oh what a shame no kill affects boot affect removal affects movement or presence of any kind guess i win.”[/quote]
Ok, this is either brilliant or crazy, I’m not sure which. 4R shooter, the deck running Paralysis Mark, Shadow Walk, and Blood Curse, and with a really tight structure? The one that will take you on if you want to fight it, and if you don’t it’ll boot your dudes, move anywhere, and cut your influence? I do not understand.
Things are still civil but this is just a reminder to keep it friendly folks. Don’t talk to others as if they don’t know what they’re talking about. This is not directed to anyone in particular, just pre-emptively protecting the tone of the discussion.
Correct. Although i have seen people win without Paralysis Mark in the deck.
I will accept your interpretation.
It does not give 2-4 gr a turn it requires you take the money which requires you to have a stronger board state and shootout potential than your opponent other wise it only gives the passive.
Now its my turn to be confused. Because i feel like we are on a similar side in this argument but i’m glass half full and your glass half empty. My personal meta is nothing but top tier. There is maybe one or two people who don’t bring out the big guns every single tournament/weekly/casual meeting. The point of that paragraph is that the game is new and we don’t have a large or consistent enough competitive scene to even really talk about tiers outside of the best stuff. I think many people will agree that 4R Shooter and Control decks are very very good currently. But as to everything else the data is just not there. You and i have both argued that gadgets are lacking. Yet I pull out a quaterman tourney victory and what? that’s that? Balanced meta? No, obviously there needs to be consistent results to change anyone’s minds. My point was that there are not because many tournaments either have a lack of top tier decks or a lack of lower tier decks which makes the pool of information very difficult to read.
I can look at pieces and concepts that are out there for new and exciting potential competitive decks and say “maybe” but until someone can get results with that stuff it will always be maybe. But at the end of the day Maybe is still better than not a chance.
Let’s start all over again. My main points are:
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I would like the devs to support Gadgets, Miracles, and Abomination, make them more viable and competitive, before introducing (or rather, focusing on) new machanics and factions.
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These three archetypes have been experimented with extensively, and found somewhat lacking in comparison with the strongest decks in the meta. They require more attention from the devs, not from the players.
And then there’s this:
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Desolation Row boosts Sloane economy. It might have certain issues with maneuvering, but saying that it has bad economy is incorrect. In a matchup vs. non-shooting decks it has excellent economy. Against other shooty decks, it sacrifices maneuvering for economy boost. Even if it doesn’t use the job on some turns, its economy is still no worse than the basic Sloanes or Law Dogs.
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4R shooter is a deck that’s pretty good all around, vs. both aggro and control, as it has both good shooting capacity and control elements (extra mobility + ways to affect the opponent’s board state outside of shootouts).
You look like you have some insights about the state of the game and strengths of certain decks, and I am NOT saying that you don’t know what you’re talking about. However, I do not understand what you’re saying, the way you’re saying it. You talk about one thing and casually mention some other things like they’re obvious truths, and my eyeballs roll out and my hair curls.
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I Agree, but as others have mentioned this is unlikely and as these kinds of games are almost always designed far in advance there is a high chance that we will have to wait for these boosts to come out.
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I also agree, in regards to these 3 archetypes. However there are deck types that have been largely abandoned such as loose structure dirty dogs decks which do have the potential to fight against a lot of top tier decks.
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I’m more discussing how its used in tournaments rather than how it works conceptually.
http://dtdb.co/en/decklist/962/desolation-row-1st-place-london-op1-5-1-
^this won a tournament. This has no stable starting economy. This doesn’t mean the player is bad, but i refuse to believe that a deck that requires to have a successful job just to remain functional can’t possibly be stopped.There are a lot of people running this home like this. and winning. and the only way for that to be true is that they have many turns of successful unopposed jobs. Which sounds to me like a player problem. Which either A) means that people have no in deck answers for this kind of deck or B) have no idea how to combat this type of deck. Both of which skew the way that the game is approached from a competitive and casual level.
- Yes
[quote=“Woad, post:29, topic:189”]
- I Agree, but as others have mentioned this is unlikely and as these kinds of games are almost always designed far in advance there is a high chance that we will have to wait for these boosts to come out.[/quote]
Probably I still cannot wrap my head around the fact that what we are waiting for now has been designed and scheduled before the release of the core set. It’s like looking at the stars - their light still reaches us, but in fact some of them are already dead.
What is that? How loose is the structure, and what’s dirty about them? Can you give an example?
So when you were speaking of “desolation row decks that have one of the worst econs in the game” you were referring to specific builds that you’ve seen winning tournaments, where their pilots neglected starting money and counted on succeeding the first turn job. I see. I always wondered how these decks deal with Wendy winning lowball.