Thanks to both of you for chiming in (it may not feel like you’re adding value when you agree with a point someone else has made, but it is helpful to know if something is a widespread issue) on Ivor.
I’ve faced Ivor decks pre and post Errata that were similar to this, piloted by 1x Sheriff Winner and 3x Sheriff finalist @Ijiasu, and know the pain they can inflict. It was helpful to know the flavour of deck, cheers. I can across a deck that got Ivor in during T2 (ish) in York’s sheriff, but just bulldozed through its lack of high value cheatin’ punishment after eating one punishment card. Agree these can be powerful and frustrating to play against - sometimes feels like you’re getting nowhere in a war of attrition. As mplain rightly noted in one of his tournament reports, these decks can have issues forcing shootouts too, albeit that doesn’t help much if you want to shoot too but feel you’ll lose a war of attrition (although this one is light on cheatin’ punishment too, so my York strategy might have prevailed here too!)!
@jayjester, thanks for the full post, helpful tone and the specific explanations on both Kungfu and Hand Rank manipulation.
I did ask others on my discord channel to post in this thread, hopefully some of the guys will do it.
I also agree with Jayjester that hand rank manipulation got a little bit out of hand, but I consider PTPT to be a fair card, it is a double edge sword at the end of the day ( also this card is a reason why I think WD shouldn’t work in lowball). I will stay away from this thread for now to let others express their opinions
One thing that puzzles me is that I often see complaints about 108 having too many cheap dudes, but Sloane also having lots of cheap dudes rarely gets mentioned. Perhaps 108 Worldly Desires’ economy strength and the prevalence of 108 slide decks made them more visible than Sloane? Den of Thieves and Protection Racket can also rake in the ghost rock and allow for very strong dude spam and chess/shooty slide style decks.
108 having access to Randall as a 2 influence 0 upkeep dude with a good trait definitely helps them a bit too much, and I agree that giving him an upkeep seems like a good way to go.
Kung Fu can do some ridiculous stuff but requires quite heavy deck building dedication to pull off a lot of its tricks and a fair bit of player skill to pilot effectively. It definitely has its counters too. If anything, I think Kung Fu is underplayed because people don’t understand how it works - I have heard it said at tournaments. Armadillo Shotgun decks are a pain to play against but not invincible.
Auto Revolver is a weird one. If it was called ‘Sniper Rifle’ would there be so much confusion regarding it? Still, changing it so it only works in shootouts where it’s present seems fair.
Turtle’s Guard is up there with Blood Curse for top spell. I’m not sure what I’d change about them - maybe increase their cost?
It is true that Sloane have cheap dudes as well, but 108’s have better benefits from them, increased hand size, card cycling and mutual support. BTW it is not only Sloane, 4th Ring has also excellent and cheap starting options.
Also I know that you can play on OCTGN, try arranging a game against Khudzlin and you will see what am I talking about when I talk about 108’s shootout control.
He plays Rabbit Fu only and while I admit that if you play slide you have a big chance of beating him, if you try to shoot, you need a massive amount of luck to even have a chance of winning a game. Cards cycling and a hand size of his deck are ridiculous.
Not to hijack, but this is close to topic and I thought it should be mentioned.
It’s always bothered me how AEG refused to see the side-markets the Deadlands IP offers. Things like premium tokens, premium deck sleeves, premium playmats etc. If the game didn’t sell well it’s because they didn’t seem to really want to sell it. They gave those things away at tournaments which was nice, but I know more than a few players who complained you had to spend $200 to get more metal ghost rock off the shelf (in the premium set) or buy it on e-bay by buying a tournament kit. I think it says something that sites like brokentoken can even exists. There’s a whole industry based on offering game add-ons.
ECG really lends itself well to a mixed market attitude. Instead of releasing strictly base and expansions, (which should still be the core model) I always thought it would be an excellent idea to incorporate pre-built and competitive decks to the offering. For $15 or $20 you can buy a deck that plays well in the current meta. You could make player input to these decks part of the prize for Marshal. To enhance the resale on pre-built decks include alt-art or foils of key cards and limit the number of decks printed that way. Maybe have one per outfit and after the Marshal tournament mix them up and re-release.
Finally, separate the cards and the tokens. Card releases in one set of base and expansions, tokens in maybe a base cardboard set, a better plastic set, and a premium metal set or make whole varieties of sets based on outfit or art. Give them Deadlandsy names like Regular ol’ chips, fancy chips, pearl chips, highflautin’ token set, etc… DT is a game that requires lots of tokens, you can sell that.
I think a big stumbling block for some game designers is that they can’t see the forest for the trees. The card game itself and mechanics are the most important, no doubt. But the environment you are in when you play a game isn’t solely based on the core play pieces and mechanics. It’s also in the feeling of the chips and the table and the extras. When a new player is looking at a room of gamers and is deciding which one looks interesting, it’s not the one with the least flare. Players know when other players have invested time and money into their game and they want to be a part of that.
Consider a game of doomtown with the base set, vs a game of doomtown with premium poker chips and metal ghost rock. From a purely visual sense and knowing nothing else about the game which one grabs your attention?
Anyway, I think Pinebox could leverage those aspects to be more than a way of keeping Doomtown alive.
PEG sell Deadlands dice and poker chips, and produced themed card decks. There are also maps, miniatures and other supporting things available They’ve done the same with some of their other RPG properties. I have no idea what their actual plans are, but if this rerelease gets a good reception then based on their past I could see Doomtown card game accessories being a possibility. I had looked at getting some of the Deadlands art chips for Doomtown in the past, but the number of red & blue chips in the set aren’t ideal for Doomtown. I’d definitely go for some if they released a set rebalanced with Doomtown in mind (the updated art ones from the Good Intentions Kickstarter look really cool!).
In general I am not a fan of functional errata. Errata that is only used for power level changes makes the game more difficult for new players to play. I understand changing for printing errors and so they work as intended, but completely changing how cards work is not something I am a fan of.
I would rather the cards be restricted or out right banned in tournament play. The creation of two formats, “High Noon Restricted” or something that has the ban/restricted list, and a format that allows the most powerful cards to run wild.
I’m fine with most cards. I still dislike Unprepared as it fully shuts down tower decks, with no way to play around it for most factions (Hamshanks/Tyx is about the only thing that reliably could protect a tower deck).
Per the request to have cards that boot items for shotguns/holsters: There’s already unprepared, mugging and phantom fingers. I think the issue is most people don’t want to pack mugging over a better job and phantom fingers is a weird value and huckster only (Even though I love 6’s for my huckster decks).
I can see the aggravation in Ivor’s recursion, but there’s lots of items in the game that make shootouts feel ineffectual. Willa Mae (Granted it’s normally one use), turtle shell, all tokens, etc.
Hiding in the Shadows works as protection from Unprepared (and other nasty shootout actions), but in a high value spell or gadget deck it does increase the risk of failed pulls.
While not reliable against Shotguns, Faithful Hound can also get rid of a Holster but needs support and clever play to actually get it to work.
Mugging is great if attachments are giving you trouble.
I agree with your general dislike for functional errata KujakuDM. I can understand the role it plays in tournament scenes, but it can be very discouraging for new players. Nothing is quite so frustrating as to learn that these brand new cards you just bought are actually incorrect, unplayable, and/or completely different. Plus, it adds a whole other layer of complexity to learning the game too: remembering which cards are played as-written, and which have been amended.
I agree that a ban list is a cleaner solution. But that presents similar situations for new players. I’ve often felt that there is some tension between needs/wants of new/casual players and hardcore competitors. While there is definite merit in accommodating all play styles and preferences, it’s a serious balancing act.
As a dedicated casual player, I believe in the community’s ability to self regulate. For instance, when building decks, I am actively seeking powerful and creative card combos. I find it satisfying when a deck “sings”. But if a deck/combo starts to feel broken or is really discouraging for my opponent to play against, I’ll just…not play it. I’m not gonna beat the snot out of a friend over and over just because the cards are legal. That’s not fun for me. And I don’t expect perfection from designers either. But that’s just me in my little corner of the world.
I understand the objection to functional errata in principle, but I think that the vast majority of people who the game appeals to are already familiar with the nuances of all the meta-information required in an expandable card game.
We don’t really have any objection to the fact that we expect a new player to know or learn the tournament structure and floor rules when they want to compete. A ban list is a cleaner option, but it takes cards out of the pool. There’s still the risk of some new player showing up with a deck that a card revolves around and finding out it’s banned, so it can be a bad experience with either approach.
Personally, my biggest pet peeve with games like this are unusable cards. A banned card is basically the same thing, a useless piece of cardboard with an idea that can’t be realized.
Limiting Hot Lead Flyin’ to a one of really limits its usefulness, but doesn’t completely remove it from the card pool.
I also don’t expect perfection, but I really feel that requiring reprints or taking a sharpie to a card should not be a requirement. (Again, misprints and clarifications of intent not withstanding)
Thinking on it, one of my biggest gripes is that functional errata only goes after cards that tend towards too powerful. There is never any mention of making never played cards worth while.
It’s saying that “Bard Cards are allowed to be Bad, but good cards aren’t allowed to be good.”
I can understand the frustration here, but I think it is because strong cards are more of a problem in the competitive environment. It is frustrating that weak cards like Auction or Prayer exist and made it through playtesting without being upgraded, but they don’t warp the environment the way that Hot Lead Flyin’ did.
With a online game it would be easy to reissue Prayer to make it playable, once playtesting had found the right power level for it. Expanding the errata list gives more things for people to remember/to confuse new players with, which is why errata (even where desirable) must be applied sparingly. This leads to the area of greatest need (very strong cards) getting errata rather than weak cards.
Doomtown has at least managed to keep errata to a fairly short, manageable list and printed a lot of corrected cards in saddlebags/pine boxes.
Enjoying the discussion here, both on the broader philosophy behind errata and on particular homes, actions, dudes etc.
I agree with @Harlath. Unless it would be an industry or DTR standard to print “patched” version of the cards, say in every big box, errata is the way to go. HLF and PM were such bad cards for the game, I am happy they got nerfed and 4th Ring is my favourite faction.
