Dear Pinebox,
First off I want to express my infinite gratitude that you all have played your cards brilliantly. Reminds me of the Classic card “Stitchin’” or “Sewing Circle” in which a Harrowed dude who was killed is given yet another shot at unlife. You guys rock!
So question. Will there be any plans to errata some cards from DTR in addition to reprinting them? If so, I’d like to submit some suggestions of cards that deserve another look:
Testing Range - this deed should have the “core” trait
Tin Star - this goods should grant the “deputy” trait
Auction - this action should perhaps grant control points somehow
Prayer - this action should grant an already Blessed dude a skill bonus
Sanford Taylor - this dude should not have to boot to use his ability
This is just off the top of my head. If this is helpful as a community poll as a way to bring ideas to the new design team, great. Either way I look forward to seeing what you do with this great game, and I know it is in good hands.
Sensible suggestions for errata sounds like a good idea.
Testing Range as ‘Core’ would certainly help out Experimental gadgets a bit.
I’ve tried to think of ways to make Auction work but it’s always ended up being something that sounds far too good for landslide decks.
Prayer for one I’d like to reprint just to redo the wording on it as it’s not the clearest card!
Allie Hensman XP has an inconsistency in her text that never got a technical errata (one sentence says ‘must give ghost rock’, next sentence implies a choice of whether to give ghost rock and it was ruled that you can choose.
Ebenezer Springfield would suddenly become playable and give Blessed a boost if he gained an influence.
First off thanks! We’re trying our damndest to do this fine game the justice it deserves. To that end -
We are working on errata - the intent is to create a healthy competitive environment and foster positive play experiences. We’re actively listening to you guys - that much I can say. How we use that data, at this point, I can’t comment on. Our focus is on the next release and preparing our tournament rules for that. You’ll hear a bit more in the future.
Until then - flood this thread with feedback! Be excited! Cuz we sure as Hell are.
I think there are better ways to make experimental tech viable e.g. releasing few action cards that have FEAT and EXPERIMENTAL keywords, they wouldn’t trigger on a bad pull or if they were strong, pulling them could be bypassed by booting a dude, or paying additional GR cost.
Additionally they could be limited to two per value, so if someone would want to stack action cards in certain value then there risk of bad pull would still exist and limiting them to two per value would also allow covering two different values by taking one card space ( 2 x 2 instead of 4 x1).
When it comes to bad cards, IMO it is better to leave them as they are and just print new cards that would replace them.
I’ve wanted a balance errata for a while. Too add my two cents in:
I love changing Testing Range to a “Core” deed, it would definitely help with Experimental decks.
I always figured Auction should just change the wording “If you own AND CONTROL that deed…” to “If you own that deed…” so that it functioned almost like Elmore and Androcles by giving you quick cash if your opponent swarms a deed. As good as SIYE? No, but it helps give a cash influx which can help out your economy.
Prayer really does need a buff. I don’t know if adding +1 blessing is the right buff, but it is worth play-testing.
Tin Star adding the Deputy keyword would be really nice. Could lead to a lot of fun little “deputy Sloan” type of decks. Not sure if that is keeping with theme, but it would help transition the squeaky clean reloaded dogs into dirty dogs for when they take on Mario.
Ebenezer probably just needs +1 to his skill rating (actually most overpriced dudes with “Skill 0” need that). He can already get the +1 influence from Abram’s Crusaders (especially if tin star gets a boost) and I really hate having Blessed 0 dudes because some really good Miracles are locked behind a “use this dude’s skill rating” effect.
Diable en Boite is easily one of the worst gadgets in the game, the “Weapon” keyword is really annoying to play around and you have to lose a dude to trigger its ability. This card only works when given to dirt cheap clowns (which I guess was the point), but even then it just doesn’t justify its low value the way Soulblast, Telepathy Helmet, or Sun-Touched Raven do.
As for just printing new cards, I hate the idea of any card never seeing the light of day because something objectively better came along. Doomtown has the unique chance to balance around the suit and value of cards, and it would be a shame if we just went “ehh, 9 of hearts needs a better card. Here you go.”
As a general suggestions, I’d like to see the core set re-released with a better rulebook, and an errata pack with 4 copies of all past cards that get erratad.
New rulebook, including definitions of ‘pay a cost’, and the important ruling on first sentence being a cost. The rules board is nearly unusable, so some rulings are not known to new players, such as ‘instead’ rule. I also have a personal vendetta against certain traits being broken against the rules (see Mario Crain xp1)
Doomsday Supply needs an Errata on it’s shootout ability.
Wishlist would include a ‘Feat’ action that you choose its suit and value, no idea what affect, but something useful for experimental deck, and also playable in other decks as well. I want a good cheatin’ resolution gadget, and also a gadget that starts a job (maybe a dynamite launcher ;)).
What is exactly a problem with Doomsday Supply? The card trumps the rule in the same way e.g.movement cards trump movement rules. My understanding is that only “cannot rules” cannot be overriden by cards. Am I missing something?
The only thing that looks a bit off with it to me is where it says ‘if this card is played as a Shootout play’ which would make more sense as ‘if this ability is used as a Shootout play’.
“Shootout abilities you use must come from either an action card in your play hand (which is played and then discarded), a deed or outfit in play, or a card in your posse (i.e a dude or one of their attached cards). You can also use a Shootout ability on a card that’s not in a posse, but only if that ability would bring a card currently in play into a posse.”
Doomsday supply ability is on a card that is not an action card, a deed, an outfit, or a card in the posse. There for it can only bring a card currently in play into a posse. It’s shootout ability is trying to bring a card not currently in play into the shootout. This is explicitly prohibited by the rules.
I understand what your saying, there are many in game affects that are not explicitly allowed by the rule book, but this rule is very clear to me that abilities are only allowed to bring cards not currently in play into a shootout if it is an action, deed, outfit, or card in the posse.
The Cards Are Always Right… Unless They’s Wrong
Many of the cards seem to contradict the rules; in such cases, the cards are always right.
However, when one card says you can do something, and another card says you can’t, the
one that says you can’t takes priority. For example, Clementine Lepp says that she can’t be
called out while at a Saloon you own. That means that while she is there, no one can call
her out, not even a wanted Sanford Taylor.
This rule explicitly lays out the exact conditions that must be met for an ability to bring a card currently not in play into a shootout. It was ruled that The Pack Awakens, and Spirit Dance cannot be used by a Shaman to bring Nature Spirit into a shootout when they are not in the posse. Because the rule creates an explicit restriction. Spirit dance is not an outfit, action, or deed, so it must be in the posse to work. Doomsday supply is not an outfit, action, or deed, so it must be in the posse for it’s shootout ability to work. Since it is an improvement, it cannot be in the posse.
I don’t want to turn this thread into my issue with Doomsday supply, I think this is a rule problem that should be fixed, and I will leave it at that.
Thanks to everyone for their thoughts here. Without turning the thread negative, I’m interested in what people think is too strong too, although I quite like the positive slant this has taken in making old cards more useful. Tentatively, without running the good tone so far, I’m interested in anything (homes/dudes/actions/goods etc) that needs toned down.
Like Alex, it is very helpful to see your feeling on this topic. Lots of wise thoughts on individual cards, and on wider balance (@SavageJack makes a good point on Doomtown’s unique value based balancing). Comments on the rulebook are all good too - old one had great flavour but could be clearer.
While we are on the topic of technical erratas, Auto-Revolver needs a change so that James Ghetty can build one for free (although I think this also needs a change to the rule book, probably the same one that is needed for Doomsday Supply). It also needs a change so that it only gets used in shootouts where it is present (unless we all decided that Auto-Revolvers are now magical snipers).
With that said, I find that Hydro-Puncher is usually a much better 7H gadget than Auto-Revolver. Not that Hydro-Puncher is OP, just that it provides a lot of useful abilities at once which Auto-Revolver doesn’t really have.
As for other rule book changes, I would love a formal definition on which pulls are “made by the player” and which are “made by a dude”. I always have to wonder if I can use Doyle’s Hoyle to pass experiment checks.
Wordly Desires- I could leave with repeated as long as it wouldn’t work in lowball
Baijiu Jar ( especially in combination with Bai Yang and Focusing Chi, when people use tao and when at least one Jar is in play, they go through minimum 1/3 of their deck every turn and during shootouts it is normal to have 8-10 cards played against your dudes. It also takes a long time)
Calling the Cavalry - I think, its bonus should be capped, the strongest Headline in the game.
Ivor Xp - still almost broken, if not broken. The best dude in a game by some distance.
Showboating - shouldn’t be a Feat. Also playing again certain type of decks that are build around this card is actually less fun than playing against slide. What you do is you play only non cp deeds and multiple spells of low difficulty + One Good Turn and Buried Treasure. At the end of turn 4 you should have 6-8 spells in play, you cast all of them every turn hoping that you pull Showboating as it is a Feat, so it works when pulled ( and it is free then).
Nico - CP gained by using his ability should be capped
Turtle Guard - possibly the best spell in the game
Also, Bai Yang Chen and Randall are too strong.
Also in certain match ups, Shotguns/Holster are simply too strong, even broken. I would love if the was a card that would allow to boot weapons at one locations as a noon/ shootout play, or there was more cards that increase value of your dudes.
Swider, thanks for laying out your thoughts in such a clear manner and in a sensible tone.
I’m sympathetic to a lot of the points you make, but won’t go in to specifics due to the below…
Sorry for not engaging more fully in this thread, we’re restricted on what we can say so far. Sorry if I’m a bit of an ideas/contribution vampire on this topic for now, taking ideas but without giving much back. I’m taking notes and this helps inform discussions behind the scenes, we’re listening! I’ll try to restrict myself to clarifying questions/requests for more details.
Ivor XP - I found him a lot more manageable after the errata. Is it the cost reduction that feels broken or the spell fetching?
Ivor EXP is basically a free dude if you have enough cheap abominations. He is a lot more tolerable now that he has to be played from your hand, but I still find him to be an amazing dude (and he makes his original version obsolete).
The 108 in general have too many great, cheap dudes. Not that I don’t like great dudes, but it can be a little much considering how quickly they can set themselves up. Then again, I think if the game had more time we would see other factions get there own amazing starter dudes (oh hi Father Tolarios).
As for Nicodemus and Showboating, I kinda like having alternate victory conditions in this game. It is nice in friendly games since you know your opponent is going to try some Showboating or Ancestor Spirit shenanigans and you can attack them accordingly.
Did you play against decks, that play 4 x Ivor and build around his ability? All aboms, TS domination, cards like Point Blank and Takin Ya with Me? Mplain doesn’t play anymore, but probably you could find his Oddities decks on dtdb, give them a try, it might take a few games to get how exactly the decks should work, but I think they are relatively easy to pilot. Also I am not saying the deck or strategy is unbeatable, but its economy is crazy and losing rounds of shootout isn’t that punishing as it is for pretty much any other deck . Playing you leader for say 2,3 GR and then bringing your two dudes into play most of the time for free from boot hill, sounds broken on paper and IMO is in reality.
I agree and would say Ivor went from being broken as hell to overpowered. Have to agree completely with everything else swider mentioned. (Feels like he’s listing off my most abusive decks)
Kidnapping really bothers me that it can target your own dude, and yes, there is an abusable exploit with that.
Kungfu is horrendous powerful. I’ve used it to landslide, shotgun king value dudes, or guarantee succeed at a spot removal job. In short, kungfu grants unparalleled ability to completely control a shootout.
Hand rank manipulation has become a problem IMO. I have completely changed my play style because the amount of times I’ve lost a shootout while showing the better hand. When a 2 pair becomes a hand rank 11 it takes concerted effort not to rage quite. Calling in the Cavalry, Force Field combos, and Putting the Pieces Together created decks types have made me run decks that never see resolution phase, or are as obsessed with hand rank manipulation.
