Round-table Discussion: Too Tough to Die and Out for Blood

General
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I recall when the end of the game was announced, and what feelings that brought on. I stared at the cards in my collection thinking, “If we could have had just a couple more… just a FEW more years to build the game up the possibilities would have been fantastic." -Marshal David Hammond, on the eve of the Kickstarter launch for There Comes A Reckoning

In the conclusion of creating Too Tough to Die, we’ve opened up deck building to an array of starting posse and draw structure options, leaving the game in a great place of themes being fully rounded out, competitive, fun, and able to be played in a more enjoyable manner than ever before.

I began to write about exactly how I feel this was done, but there is nothing I can say that wasn’t already expressed by our Playtesters in the six faction articles featured in the blog section here (http://pineboxentertainment.com/). I can’t thank all our testing teams from around the world enough for their hard work and dedication; without them, this set could not have been possible.

When There Comes a Reckoning was being made, the folks at Pine Box Entertainment discussed what we wanted to see in this set to continue developing the themes and needs for Doomtown players that enjoy a variety of deck types. While Blood Moon Rising opened up possibilities in the end of the AEG era, there were three Saddlebag sets that were completed, but never released. Some of these cards were altered and used to help round out the game’s themes, but more importantly they’re an example of the hard work that was going into balancing out the values and improvement of this great game. They helped accompany the new designs by Lead Designer Emre Guzelsu; while he had also created these unreleased cards, they were sent back into playtest for further revision as well.

While our pardners at Pinnacle Entertainment Group are working on distribution to retail, Too Tough to Die and There Comes A Reckoning can be ordered at https://www.peginc.com/store/doomtown-too-tough-to-die-expansion/

And now I wanted to open the discussion to all of you about what you feel was accomplished with this set, what’s still missing, and what you are hoping to see in 2019 with the next set, Out for Blood. This is Emre’s final set, which has been submitted, before Lead Designer Richard Carter takes over.

6 Likes
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I’d love to see more gadgets geared at Law Dogs!

I’d also enjoy seeing more grifters of each faction, maybe to support various playstyles.

3 Likes
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With two tough to die most of the original four factions feel like there current themes are rounded out. Anarchist and 1st nation less so where there feel like a number of undeveloped themes.

I would like to see a new base set. There are a bunch of cards in the original game which in my view are holding the game back as they heavily limit what you can print in a similar area without being overpowered. Examples include but are not limited to force field, shotgun, point blank, kidnapping, blood curse and of course the world greatest crutch Steven wiles.

I think you could do a 2.0 base set keeping the rules mostly as is with some cards reprinted and others removed and replaced. It would also give an opportunity to print outfits using the new faction names.

5 Likes
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Forgot to mention that it would be great to see more things for Spirits and Eagle Wardens.

I’m also curious if we’ll see another faction get Spirit support.

1 Like
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Thanks to the old design team and the new one for their hard work.

Things I’d like to see:

  • More experienced dudes.
  • More of the dudes from Tombstone!
  • Cool abominations: I’d love to see a Tumblebleed (due to its presence in the “Nightmare at Noon”, a big story event from earlier in the game) and a Werewolf to go with Full Moon Brotherhood/Fear Mongers.
  • Continuing to print good economy deeds: it is fun to be able to play your cards in a card game, so I’ve liked the recent 3GR for +2 deeds.
  • Expanding out some themes, like Law Dog anti-cheatin and Sloane Cheatin’, albeit latter is tough to balance.
  • Tools to help players against Hand Rank Manipulation and Slide - the latter doesn’t dominate (or even win) larger events, but I’d like to see tools for people to splash in if they’re struggling against these strategies. Things like Virginia Ann Earp for this are ideal: she’s a drifter, so she’s available to everyone and can be flexed in/out of starting posses but doesn’t squeeze out your “in-faction” dudes.

I’m not sure I agree with @neramoor’s cards for trimming in any future base set 2.0, but that’s probably for another day. :wink:

3 Likes
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My list of cards to trim from a new base set could also be called. “what does Sherriff Robbie play?”

5 Likes
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I want to see more people playing Doomtown. I love this game, and love what TCaR + TTTD did to the game; they are some of the best designed sets in it. I just want more people to play it with.

To thrive, these games need 3 things:

  • Appeal to new players to get in-flow into the game.
  • Appeal to current players to mitigate out-flow from the game.
  • Appeal to people who are willing to go above and beyond investing in the game (vanity content, etc.).

Doomtown is fine on the latter points, but catastrophic on the first one. Doomtown’s core rules are harder to digest than most successful games. Not a criticism; if I wanted to slam my face into the table playing MTG, I wouldn’t be here. It does, however, increase the entry barrier for new players. Also, damned if that isn’t compounded ten-fold by the girthy amount of card text and amount of card effects that require tracing (Doomtown does, very much, have memory). Add in the buy-in point (not that there are mountains of new players looking), and I’m firmly confident that, on its current trajectory, Doomtown will not see much new life in it.

I would like O4B (and beyond) to address this. I don’t have any great insight into how, but I think it has to involve making the game more accessible, and keeping it accessible. One potential paradigm:

  • Cut cards deep to form a new tight, stable core for season 1 (referring to everything up until now as legacy). Support two formats: eternal (legacy + all seasons legal) and seasonal (current season legal).
  • Divide that core into stand-alone decks. This and the above let people get into Doomtown with just a deck (and some dice/counters).
  • Alongside the new core, release the season 1 kick-off expansion. So season starts with the core + kick-off expansion legal.
  • Release further expansions that add to that season regularly (2-4x annually?).
  • Start new seasons semi-regularly (annually?).
  • A new season maintains the core (unless the core is deemed to have some fatal problems; in which case fix the core with cards from the last season, meaning that previous players will have the core for the new season). The aim for the core is to provide a solid baseline experience. If I buy a core deck, I can bring it to any event going forward (seasonal or eternal) and have fun.
  • A new season will have a fresh season kick-off expansion. This will prevent new seasons from being stagnant with the experience from previous seasons.

These are my musings in the 20 minutes I took to make this post (along with ample time I’ve considered this problem before this post came along). It isn’t perfect (I don’t think there is a perfect solution for an LCG/ECG), but I do feel like something akin to the above is the direction the game needs to go in to get fresh blood into it.

5 Likes
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At least one more dude with only flavor text.

4 Likes
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You want to be very careful with this. Printing hard counters (such as Virginia represents) is a last resort to imbalanced design. Counters should not be printed preemptively.

If I rolled a slide deck and was playing against something akin to what Virginia does to hand rank manipulation against slide, I’d just concede the game and feel bad about it. I don’t have to worry too much about actual Virginia, as hand rank manipulation decks are otherwise strong (and FMB can just shut her down anyway, if doing, say, hex slinging out of them).

There should be more ways to play doomtown than just fighting in town square, and we don’t want to crush archetypes that are contrary to that without them even having their chance to shine.

8 Likes
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I don’t think a hard counter to slide is needed, apologies if it came off that way! :slight_smile: One of my best games at GenCon 2017 was against slide and I’ve won a sheriff playing Shooting Slide decks, albeit with the crutch of 108 Worldly Desires (pre its justified ban). Slide decks are a necessary part of the meta as they help discipline shooting decks in to including forced callouts/jobs, I’m just conscious that many newer players find it a frustrating match (they frequently find it uninteractive, while I enjoy facing slide as a “puzzle”).

I’d just like to see some cards that help players a bit against slide while trading off some efficiency in other match-ups. Finessing that kind of thing is hard, but based on their work so far I trust the design team to pull that kind of thing off, if they’re indeed interested in pursuing that angle.

I like the idea of example decks as a good starter products: it was great to see several players at GenCon using decks from the playtest team’s example deck lists: Updated Buyer's Guide to Doomtown Reloaded & introductory decks for 2x Base Set (plus expansion decks)

One other alternate format along similar lines that I’ve considered is a 2-1-1-1 format: 2 base set, 1 Pinebox, 1 saddlebag and 4x a particular card. Remixes things for veterans, good entry point for newer players.

2 Likes
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I’d be interested in seeing factions other than Law Dogs and Outlaws care about bounty. Maybe have a sub-theme for Anarchists where they’re pulling off Robin Hood stunts against corrupt people in power and so they rack up bounty as a badge of their reputation and notoriety. Or maybe the First Peoples can put bounties on Abominations (especially from the Fearmongers) to purge unclean spirits or something.

5 Likes
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Caitlin McCue already has a bit of bounty interaction. I don’t think we ever saw anything else related to that…but we might!

2 Likes
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I second Thunderforge’s idea about Robin Hood style Anarchists. This is a Holdup is on value with Jim Hexter, would be nice to try stealing back our cash.

Outlaws need a second grifter. Actually more grifters would be good all around (especially some with influence or more with long cons), but it feels weird that the faction that can start 2 grifters only has 1.
I would also like to see more cheat-to-win, but not strictly to win shootouts. Things like “This dude joins a shootout if you cheat” or “Make this dude a stud after cheating” or “Lower your low-ball hand rank if it is cheating” or “After cheating play a weapon from your hand at a reduced cost” would all be neat effects to play with. Not so much cheat through the pain, but rather cheat to activate a bunch of cool things and hope that out-weighs getting huckleberried.

Law Dogs also need some more counter-cheatin’ that isn’t tied to skills to flesh out the archetype. And I hope with Fort 51 we also get some more dudes to invent.

Fearmongers are in a pretty good place now, I just hope that with Bayou Vermilion we get a few more mystical gadget inventors (I want my clown-car-train deck to work!).

First Peoples feel like they are in a half-done state, but they are balancing a few archetypes. I hope we see more Kung Fu and weaponized influence in O4B. I also kinda wish there was a spirit/totem related action the way other skills have. I still have yet to create a totem deck that doesn’t make me think “This deck would be better if I just made it a spirit-fortress deck”, but I am much closer then I was after BMR.

Entrepreneurs are the one faction that really feel like they are spinning their wheels. They got good dudes in the latest sets, and now clubless decks are viable, but there doesn’t seem to be much left to add in the gadget/horse/land-baron faction that isn’t “just kinda nifty”. I still feel like this comes from Entrepreneurs being the only faction with just 1 keyword, and I still dream of a day when Morgan Shamans can be a thing.

4 Likes
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The Confederate/Union dichotomy has been very underdeveloped (only three Union dudes and two Confederate dudes). I’d like to see more dudes from both sides.

Additionally, I’d like to see some support cards too. Maybe a “Rebel Yell” action card that keys off of the Confederate keyword, or a Union Army Headquarters deed where Union dudes get an Influence bonus and Confederate dudes get an automatic bounty by moving to it.

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I feel like our community is small enough, and “big” tournaments rare enough that there’s still a ton of space left to explore with the existing pool. 2T2D helps fill a lot of holes, especially with flexible starting posses, so with that I think we have a ton of creative space to explore.

That said, I’d love to see cards explicitly for multiplayer games, especially ones that allow you to bribe or make deals with people to add a little diplomacy & spice.

3 Likes
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Getting old cards into new players’ hands seems like a tough proposition. It feels like the player base is too small right now to fracture into multiple formats that some other games use. It also seems that the card pool is only just now becoming large enough, though I still find myself wanting for cards on some values.

For me, the ideal solution would be if the AEG expansions could be bundled together and re-released into a small number of larger products instead of 17. Just as a personal preference, I’d rather the whole card pool stay legal for a while, yet.

7 Likes
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Then going all-in on seasonal is preferable to all-in on eternal, IMO.

Existing players will self-organize eternal if they want it (also, from my perspective, removing cards is almost as exciting as adding; they both represent large game changes).

New players will not spend hundreds to get in on the game. LCGs have proven that time and time again.

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[quote=“Ironcache, post:17, topic:3119”]Then going all-in on seasonal is preferable to all-in on eternal, IMO.

Existing players will self-organize eternal if they want it (also, from my perspective, removing cards is almost as exciting as adding; they both represent large game changes).

New players will not spend hundreds to get in on the game. LCGs have proven that time and time again.[/quote]

Doomtown is sustained, and has been resurrected, by the feverish devotion of its core base. It has not and will not pick up random players any time soon, because that would involve retailers pushing it and they’re probably not going to do that considering the game already didn’t work that way. Alienate these players at your peril.

The FFG and Hasbro models aren’t going to work here because we don’t have the cards to shed. With 2T2D there are ~700 cards in the card pool. There are about ~2000 cards in Magic Standard and ~1100 cards in AGoT 2.0 with three more cycles and three more big boxes (~540 cards) to go before rotation is on the table. Doomtown’s deckbuilding requires a larger card pool for the same meta variety because of values and we’re not even close to what any other games consider a full card pool.

This is a luxury hobby and new players have always spent hundreds of dollars to get in, but they can’t buy products that aren’t available. They’re going to get involved because of word of mouth and not because of marketing outreach driving them into OP events (which are anchored by the long haul players who would be alienated by rotation).

The good thing about Doomtown is that you can make highly competitive decks with 2x Core sets and a couple of expansions.

9 Likes
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My single greatest suggestion would be to continue printing Dudes that are universal (in some form or fashion) for their faction. I feel that printing narrowly useful Dudes within the faction increases the repetition of game play, which is why most expandable card games pay the ultimate price.

Customization and theme development should come mostly in the form of the Outfit you select, the combination of cards, Actions, Deeds, etc. That said, you’re going to need some Dudes to be narrow in their scope. I’m just fearful of the set templates playing out to where each faction gets 1 dude for each of their themes each set. It will continue to limit variability within the themes.

Perhaps my feelings on the topic are skewed by my love of the lore/story of the game. How many times have you played against a Morgan deck and not seen one of the Morgan’s hit the table or played against Law Dogs without seeing a Sheriff past or present? If the Dudes were more universally applicable, perhaps this might change.

Overall, I think the victory conditions are in a pretty good spot. I know a lot of players seek “control” decks to return to prominence, but this is one recommendation I must strongly oppose. The closest thing to control being viable is probably a strong slide deck, and most themes and/or factions have answers to those deck styles if they choose. Any heavier element of control leads to non-interactive game play which is strongly undesirable from my perspective.

2 Likes
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I think this is the fundamental difference in our positions. I don’t see how making card cuts is alienating anyone. Personally, I would look forward to a cut. These games are made better by removing cards, not worse.

Magic does have more cards in standard. I don’t think that really matters though. Doomtown was fun out of the core with ~150 cards. I would gladly redo that experience with a balanced (IE: gadgets not trash) cut to core 2.0.

I was teaching Ashes at a local meet-up recently. The guy really enjoyed the game, and decided he wanted to buy in. When I told him the core was $70, his eyes went wide. He ended up purchasing an expansion deck instead (for roughly $20) that he could bring out to events (and borrow the components he needed from someone else’s core). The assertion that marketing / product release isn’t a very important factor for getting people in on these games is completely false.