Hello all, while I have been “playing” Doomtown Reloaded since launch, I’ve yet to grasp the deck building concept for this particular game. Instead of asking a bunch of questions and just confusing myself with information overload, I figure it is better to start with one question.
How do I go about choosing the right values for my decks?
For example I am currently trying to put together a 4R deck that uses the Wretched character, since it is a character I’ve yet to play and have wanted to for a while. With that in mind, 8’s seems like an obvious choice, but I’m not sure which other values to include.
Any information and tips in general are greatly appreciated! Thank you!
Wretched is a gadget with a high pull value - so you’ll want to stack on a couple of high values. https://dtdb.co/en/card/10019
your clubs will be A Slight Modification (8C) and good deeds on 8’s as well.
You’ll probably be running this out of one of the MCC outfits, maaaaybe Arsenal(Law Dogs)
Jacks give you Showboating, but tough to pull off without help (e.g. Margaret Hagerty, etc.).
Queens give you a powerful (cheatin) resolution: It’s not what you know.
Kings don’t really help gadgets, but make pulls and move you closer to Showboating territory.
Remember you need chumps to ace as part of Wretched’s cost. I’d start with a low value/low cost in-faction and then supplement with OOF cheapos. Henry Moran or some of the 108 1 GR dudes are good for this as he is a 10 of spades.
Most of the cheapos are low value and fail pulls.
For a Fourth Ring Wretched deck, you’ll want to start Valeria Batten and Margaret Hagarty to do some inventin’, and can bring Dabney Scuttlesby and possibly also Dr. Dawn Edwards as backup scientists in your deck. Eights will fail your pulls with Dawn, so be careful if you main value eights with her. A Pagliaccio or The Brute should also be in your starting Posse, as a cheap sacrifice for your first Wretched.
10s would be a good value to look at. Henry Moran is more Wretched fodder, Avie Cline is harrowed so only gets discarded when used to invent The Wretched, and Max Baine (Experienced 1) can give you a discount on your high value dudes - more ghost rock to spend on Wretched . 10 is also home to Unprepared, a strong Shootout action card.
Q gives you Soul Cage, which against a cheatin’ opponent can bring back your Pagliaccio or Brute again and again for Wretched inventin’, or even grab The Wretched itself. The value is also home to some great deeds and actions.
K brings Ivor Hawley (Experienced 1), who gets cheaper the more Abominations there are in play/Boot Hill, and can also bring Abominations back from the grave. It’s also home to Fancy New Hat, which would let your Wretched take over the town, and Point Blank and Election Day Slaughter if violence is your way forward.
If you want more generic ‘value choosing’ advice for decks in general (especially if your deck will be involved in shootouts), check this topic: You're Not As Unlucky As You Think
And the comments, especially, should be very helpful for more broad deck-building advice when it comes to choosing values and what cards within that value.
I will add that if you instead run The Sanitorium, you open up your band of values by a magnitude of one, as you can use the home to increase the inventin’ scientist’s (or Valeria’s) skill by one, perhaps making it so you are confident to run 8’s after all.
Or even consider running 7’s and J’s and have fun Run(nin’) 'Em Down with a Clown Carriage!
Thanks everyone for all the feedback, espcially Pr0digy for the link you provided. All the information in the OP was excellent and explained in a way that I could understand, though I still need to read through the comments. While I still find this system very complicated, I think I am beginning it more.
Hopefully I can meet up with my friend who got me into the game in the near future and finally spend a day going over deck building and play testing with him.
Of course more feedback is welcome and appreciated!
One thing I would add that is a usually good place to start in selecting values is thinking about some of the fundamentals you’ll need to cover for you deck. Many of the things covered by the previous posters here are excellent.
Here, are some good things to think about for any deck.
Do I have a way of applying pressure and forcing my opponent to interact if my goals is to use my big dudes offensively? - Usually, a good job for this for decks that need high value pulls (since The Wretched has a difficulty of 9) is Election Day Slaughter.
Do I have a way of knocking stud off the board? Nightmare At Noon is a solid choice in that department as well. Since your studs will have such high bullets, you should be able to play it without knocking your own dudes down into draws!
Do I have ways of punishing cheatin’? Usually if you are going the high value route, It’s Not What You Know… is solid choice BUT do me mindful that you need 2 GR to use it.
A bonus to running Q Clubs is that you’ll get to put other Q’s on value which are good for 4R. Soul Cage, while expensive, will also give you some recursive power which can be very effective in handling stacked decks (Deck that cheat alot)
The final thing I’ll say is always consider Fancy New Hat in high value decks. It can be an effective way of giving your newly created Wretched’s a way of taking over opposing deeds to win.
I think you’ve hit on one of the best way to build a deck: start with a card that interests you. The others have covered specifics for your deck idea and some general tips, so the below is general advice for a simple, reliable deck structure.
For a standard 3-value deck I follow the process below. You can also build straight flush decks or decks with deliberately weak shooting structures (focusing on playing deeds/using control effects to hamper your opponent) but these are a bit more complicated.
I normally begin with my starting posse, aiming for five dudes and at least four influence, with a maximum of one upkeep among my starters. I try to have at least one stud, ideally two to protect against early aggression. Sometimes I leave selecting dudes until after Step 2, particularly if I’m building a Mad Science or spell deck as I want to make sure my starting dudes can reliably invent my key gadgets/cast my key spells.
I start with a card I’m interested in, perhaps “Bounty Hunter” for a Law Dogs deck (8 of Clubs) or “The Wretched” (8 of Spades) in your case.
I then see if there are any other cards on that value that complement the card I’ve picked - if not, perhaps it is better to use the card that inspired you as one of your four “off value” cards. We’ll be aiming for around 14 cards on this value.
Then choose two other values and aim for around fourteen cards on each of these values. If you don’t have a way of removing opposing dudes with influence in your existing values or some Cheatin’ punishment, try to do it here. For a recent Law Dogs deck I then added 3s (for Shotgun and good shootout actions) and Ks (for Point Blank) to my existing 8s.
I try to always include four deeds on each of the three values that make up my deck’s shootout structure for a total of twelve deeds.
I then select around four “off value” cards (as noted below, this can be varied in a range depending on how “loose”/“tight” you want your deck to be - experimenting with a range between four and nine off value cards is common). These help dilute your hand for lowball while still helping you shoot reliably. This is a good place to insert a way of removing opposing dudes with influence or adding Cheatin’ punishment if you’re missing some. For my Law Dog deck, I hadn’t added any Cheatin’ punishment actions yet, so I used these slots on 2x Coachwhip! and 2x It’s Not What You Know…
This gives us a basic building platform of 16-14-13 across three values (or slight variations on this), four off value cards, five starting dudes and two jokers. We’re aiming for around 14 cards on each of the main values, but we increase the number of cards on the value with the cards that suit are strategy best and slightly decrease one or two of the other values if the “on value” cards don’t suit are strategy well or are very expensive.
Having a deed in your opening hand is often very helpful, and starting with twelve deeds in your deck means roughly a 77% chance of having a deed in your opening hand (assuming a 52 card deck plus two jokers, less five starting dudes). These are reasonable odds and once you’ve got one deed in play your economy will flow better, helping your play more deeds, dudes and attachments, increasing the flow of cards through your hand each turn.
I also like to make sure that I can play all of my deeds on T1 even if I the lose the opening lowball hand.
dtdb.co is excellent for searching cards by value and making deckbuilding easier, here’s the Law Dogs deck I’ve been playing recently that more or less follows these principles. Edinburgh 2017 Epitaph Winner 5-1 · DoomtownDB
You can dial the number of “off value” cards up (removing cards from your three main shooting values above) - this will help you win lowball and reduce your chances of accidentally cheatin’ in lowball but make your shootout hands a bit weaker. Or you can reduce the number of off value cards, making your deck a very reliable shooter but increasing the chances of cheatin’ in lowball and lowering your chances of winning the lowball hand each turn.
All of the above are guidelines rather than rules. Certain decks work well despite breaking these guidelines, so experiment!
I’d like to add here that another of the big decisions for a “standard” (3-value) deck answers the question: “How tight/loose do I want my deck to be?”
Harlath mentions here that 4 non-structure cards is a good remainder - I would extend that into a range of between 4 and 9 cards, with 4 being pretty “tight” and 9 being pretty “loose” - which naturally have a few minor trade-offs but overall represents a deck that can shoot quite well.
Quite so! This is definitely a range that should be determined by how common cheatin’ punishment is in your environment, your desire to have legal hands in lowball (for cards like Philip Swinford) and how much stud you can normally muster. If you’ve got a strong shooting posse you can ease your shootout structure a little to win lowball more often.
I’ll tweak my post a little at some point and elaborate on this if I ever work this in to a proper article.
I mean value, as with a three value deck I’m generally building for full house/four of a kind/five of a kind. These are flexible cards slots (if you add in off-value cards that stay in play, like dudes/goods/deeds then your draw structure will be stronger after playing them, if you add in off-value clubs they’ll generally stay in your deck, diluting your draw structure. Both approaches have advantages/disadvantages).
Therefore any card that doesn’t share my three main values is “off value”. Happy to expand further if needed!
@Harlath Thank you for clarification, and no apology necessary! I thought that’s what you meant, but wanted to be sure.
Only reason I asked is because my friend Joe who got me into the game, introduced me to a MCC deck that avoids using Clubs as The R & D Ranch is a big part of the deck for inventing gadgets. I figure that other people have created similar decks that may avoid certain suits.
Mad Science decks sometimes avoid clubs to avoid triggering certain effects, good catch!
There are also some Sloane decks that try to avoid deeds and get their control points in other ways:
Deeds, whats a deed? V2 · DoomtownDB is a good example, it gets points via Allie Hensman and using the Sloane Gang’s home to get control points in town. It avoid deeds to boost its chances at a straight flush and reduce the number of control points available to the opponent (as this deck can generate economic gains by other means!).
Similarly, some other Sloane decks just run actions and Mario Crane (Mario Crane · DoomtownDB), so that they will always have at a flush and making Mario difficult to get rid of.
However, these are specific niche (but interesting) decks - I think it is best to cover the basic first.
There is a name for mad science players who avoid clubs; Cowards! Live fast die young and leave a massive hole in the ground.
To be slightly less facetious even if you are running a normal three value structure which has devolved by playing goods your chance of drawing a club is probably around 1 in 3. In those circumstances I’m normally prepared to take the risk and have a plan for what I will do if I fail the pull (that plan maybe lose but them the breaks)
. 10 is also home to Unprepared, a strong Shootout action card.
