The Arsenal discussion

I’ve been playing Law Dogs with Miracles for the past couple weeks, and every time I build a deck I struggle justifying the use of The Arsenal over the basic outfit.

The ability to call out wanted dudes is basically a reverse of the core outfit. There you have a built-in ability to put bounties and you need some cards to call out wanted dudes (Bounty Hunter, Clyde, Judge). The Arsenal has a built-in call-out mechanism, but you need to play cards that make dudes wanted. Before, it was only The Evidence, and it’s not a very good tool as it aces itself after a single use. Now we have Andrew Burton and Confession.

Andrew Burton is rather interesting, he basically gives you the ability to call out a dude at home on the first turn - provided that you have another blessed, or a mad scientist, and a miracle or gadget. Problem is, he’s Blessed 0, and that significantly limits your ability to cast miracles (they all have different difficulty levels) And if you want to also play Rev.Perry Inbody, then you essentially pay 6 gr for 0 influence - it’s problematic to make a good starting posse with these two and still have enough influence and stud bullets.

Confession seems like a reliable way to make dudes wanted every turn, but it has two problems: first, your blessed needs to boot (probably in the town square) to cast it, so you cannot call out the newly-wanted dude on that same turn (unless you have another Blessed or manage to unboot the first one; it’s easier with gadgets). The second problem with this spell is that it’s off-value, and you probably want to be playing other cards off-value too, like Lay On Hands and Faster on the Draw.

With so many restrictions imposed on Miracle decks at the moment, requiring off-value and support cards and limiting the starting posse, I usually end up with a deck that, uh, doesn’t shoot very well. Extra mobility and call-out options help against Clowns and Landslide, but when I face an aggressive Sloane or Law Dogs deck, one that doesn’t turtle at home but is rather eager to start a fight itself, then all my ability to hunt down dudes becomes unneeded, and the sacrifices I made to pay for it become all the more visible – and painful.

As for The Arsenal’s ability to call out unbooted non-wanted dudes, the only application I see for it is in games vs. Clowns: my Blessed dude goes to the town square, gets paralysed, but still threatens the enemy hucksters. But the thing is, with Micah and Shadow Walk, they don’t really need to go through the town square…

I didn’t test any gadget builds of The Arsenal, they should have less problems with spreading gadgets between multiple dudes, but they have even less ways to make dudes wanted (no Confession, and the Evidence is in the same slot as Force Field and Flame-Thrower).

So, my question to you fellow players is: Did you manage to build a Law Dogs miracles/gadgets deck that is actually better with The Arsenal than with the basic outfit? How do you fare against aggressive shooty decks? And what’s your starting posse?

Maybe it’s a different perspective, but I always saw The Arsenal as a more defensive ability. I don’t so much use its ability to call out wanted dudes at home, but when your booted dudes can threaten call outs, it’s much easier to defend what is yours and fight against control.

Personally, when I play it, I don’t bother trying to make people wanted. Sometimes it happens on its own and it’s nice to then call out at home (e.g. fight in my private location, they run, I follow). But more often than not, I’ll play Arsenal when I want to play a Dogs Deck that doesn’t focus on bounties or wanted punishment at all. That way I can play a straight up Law Dogs Miracles or Gadgets build and not have a completely wasted home ability.

Huh. Then the question becomes: why are you playing Law Dogs at all?

Law Dogs’ main strengths are Bounty Hunter, Wendy, and Tommy (yes, Philip, you help too). If you drop BHs and the anti-wanted theme, and you also want to include a huckster, blessed, or mad scientist into your starting posse, then you won’t be able to play both Wendy and Tommy. Actually, if you want a reliable deck that doesn’t fall apart to first turn Kidnappin’, you probably want to start with two skill dudes, and then you won’t have enough money for either of them stud deputies.

Gadgets are better in Morgan, I believe now more than ever, as they have access to lots of cheap mad scientists, and only they have MS2, which is crucial for deckbuilding. The tempo advantage that Drew Beauman provided has been evened out by the Gadgetorium and William Specks, and while unbooting Drew or Andregg with Rev. Inbody’s ability might seem like a good idea, it comes with additional restrictions: you cannot build around 6’s, and you have little money to spend for other dudes (who won’t be Wendy or Tommy). Law Dogs need some new shiny toys to attract the attention of the scientific community.

Hexes are also better off in The Fourth Ring, with all the cool in-faction hucksters there and the outfit ability that is actually very useful (rather than ‘not completely wasted’). Especially if you drop BH and don’t start Wendy or Tommy, I don’t see deputies practicing card tricks any time soon.

Miracles are their thing, true, they have some very good Blessed dudes. But then, miracles themselves are somewhat lacking at the moment. There are lots of unboot effects, which makes The Arsenal’s ability to call out while booted even less useful. There are support effects with high difficulty that require your Blessed to boot - and if it’s Perry, you’d rather have him booted at home, not in town square. Spreading miracles between several dudes is hard, so making ‘occasional’ use of The Arsenal’s ability is not that easy. At the moment, I believe Miracles work better with the base Law Dogs outfit and their ability to threat isolated enemy dudes with Bounty Hunters.

The bottom line here is that I agree with you on that The Arsenal lets you ‘play a straight up Law Dogs Miracles or Gadgets build and not have a completely wasted home ability’. I just wish that the alternative was as useful as other homes are.

P.S. Same with Oddities of Nature, it seems to be more like ‘I want to play 4R without spells’ rather than ‘Build around me, I have a plan’.

Not all homes need to be something to build around, although I’m sure enterprising people will find ways to put those abilities to maximum use :wink:

Law Dogs are not always about the bounties. Sure they have synergies with them, but if people want to play without focusing on them, they now have the option. Some people will do it just because they like the faction, or just the dudes, or just have an idea to put the Arsenal’s ability to good use anyway.

Well that’s what I originally made this post for, to ask if any enterprising people have found particular ways to put The Arsenal to good use. :wink:

Your theoretical input is appreciated as well though. I just reworked my 8+10 Deedslide deck by removing BH and switching to The Arsenal, will see if it does any good tonight.

I didn’t build much with the arsenal: I don’t find the theme I want to use it for.
I did try a gadget miracle hybrid, but it was only because I wanted to build 4 decks using the new outfits. And this one was the less interesting (and efficient) by far.
I’ll try again (with a blessed build) when I get my hand on the SB as it brings a new blessed dude and a couple of miracles. Blessed/Miracles is a bit too young to have all the options needed, but I’d like to try a non-original Abram build with confession supporting the outfit ability.

Also, I never managed to make lawdogs gadget work… So I am not the most helpful with this thread :slight_smile: but I think the Arsenal can be the right home for such a build.

I agree with DB0’s perspective that it’s great a defensive ability, where as the main home is more an offensive one. I think the LD will be able to set up a nice defensive net over time which will differentiate the two strategies of the two homes. I do also think the cards aren’t quite there yet arsenal wise.

Honestly if you view The Arsenal’s ability as an anti-wanted ability first and foremost, I think you’re going to have a bad time with it. That is definitely the least useful aspect of it, in my opinion. At least until we have a larger selection of means to make people wanted (Frontier Justice helps with that if you’re running Miracles).

Honestly I was super stoked to see the base LD outfit originally. With BH as a good ol’ boy returning from Classic as well as the likes of Clyde and Somerset (who are expensive and hardly see play from me now) I was really hopeful about the prospect of a wanted-punishing archetype out of LD. It’s what I played in Classic with things like Lynch Mob, Flight of Angels, Mob Justice, and Bounty Hunters coupled with Warrants, Confession, Guilt by Association, and Red-Handed.

I was sure that with a built-in Warrant mechanic I would be seeing lots of wanted punishment to fill my deck with since I wouldn’t need cards to make people wanted in the first place. Brilliant! Alas, that’s not how it’s gone so far. We saw 5 further releases and the only real card that I would classify as wanted punishment is…Too Much Attention. It’s not a bad card…but It’s not great either. Certainly not something to really build around that motif in any substantial way.

Honestly, I’ve been really disappointed with the development of wanted punishment in general. BH remains the only really good card for it…and that gets repetitive after nearly a year of the game. I’m glad the Arsenal allows me to play LD without having to focus on that aspect of the game, because it’s woefully undersupported IMO. The Jail helps a bit, but it’s really not punishment either. It benefits from punishment, which is still sorely languishing.

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Ah, but I do have a plan - taking this to another thread - :smiley:

Use the fancy new feature of “reply as linked topic”! :smile:

Don’t do it, it’s a trap!

I’m gonna piggy back on this thread since the name of the thread is The Arsenal discussion. With the Arsenal being the deck of the week on Who is having success with the arsenal and what ways are you going? Gadget, Miracles w/weapons, Miracles w/o weapons, or possibly a hybrid of both. The deck i am building and playing recently is running the same values. Instead of Andrew I am running Gina because I really would rather have the extra card at the start of the game. Felix instead of of the other drifter blessed because I like the influence. What’s everyone’s thoughts now?

Since Nightmare at Noon, The Arsenal with miracles is my new go-to multiplayer deck. In the couple of games I played with it I was really impressed with the outfit’s ability to threaten dudes and players that just try to stay out of trouble at the moment. But again, just multiplayer.

We got some nice miracles now, but still need a good starting Blessed or two. Something like Sister Mary Jebediah would help :smile:

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Overall, I like the arsenal + blessed. It brings in a nice change in workable values. The main problem I see is unturtling people, specifically dudes and deeds, and our current blessed aren’t swimming in influence. Yes, the arsenal is really great at getting dudes off your deeds, but there is very little an arsenal deck can do to put the bounties on you opponent if he doesn’t want them. Burton is a once only, The evidence is a once only because it aces itself. Confession is a low value, I run it because I have to, but I don’t like it.
I know there are other cards that start jobs/shootouts at opponents homes, but they really aren’t in the values I’m playing in for my arsonal deck.

I am running jobs to bring them out EDS is a great way to force a shootout. If they don’t come out to play, they ace a dude. Coach Comes to town or recruitment drive to gain ghost rock or a dude or deed.

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