Does switching from a “conditions not met” to a “conditions met” state for a “Is a stud” trait to take its effect counts as “becoming a stud”. Does the opposite counts as “becoming a draw”?
Let’s look at a few cards:
Mr. Outang: Each of your Kung Fu dudes at this location with a Whiskey Flask or Baijiu Jar attached has +1 Kung Fu and is a stud.
Let’s say I have a stud with a Whiskey flask in a posse. They get hit by a “Sun in your eyes” and become a draw. Then Mr Outang moves to this location and joins the posse. Does my dude become a stud?
If they didnt have a Whiskey Flask beforehand, but equip one while Mr Outang is at their location, would they become a stud after being hit by Sun in your eyes?
Let’s say Mr Outang is holding a Whiskey flask (so he’s a stud) and gets hit by Sun in your eyes. He then uses Rabbit kung fu to leave the shootout and location, then come back in the shootout. Would he become a stud again since “this location” (Mr Outang’s location) has changed?
Bowie Knife: This dude is a stud. If there is an unbooted non-Melee Weapon in the opposing posse, Bowie Knife provides no bullet bonus and does not make this dude a stud.
Let’s say my dude has a Bowie knife (so they’re a stud). They join a shootout where my opponent has an unbooted non-melee weapon (so they’re now a draw). My opponent then hit my dude with Sun in your eyes. Does the “becomes a draw” part of Sun in your eyes take place? If after that, the dude with the unbooted non-melee weapon leaves the shootout, does my dude becomes a stud again?
The following is the ruling for now and language is still being discussed.
Outang will only hand out his stud once, just like bowie knife, but it is based on the dude receiving the effect, not the dude giving it, so each dude in a shootout can benefit from Outang at different times.
Let’s say I have a stud with a Whiskey flask in a posse. They get hit by a “Sun in your eyes” and become a draw. Then Mr Outang moves to this location and joins the posse. Does my dude become a stud?
Yes
If they didn’t have a Whiskey Flask beforehand, but equip one while Mr Outang is at their location, would they become a stud after being hit by Sun in your eyes?
Yes
Let’s say Mr Outang is holding a Whiskey flask (so he’s a stud) and gets hit by Sun in your eyes. He then uses Rabbit kung fu to leave the shootout and location, then come back in the shootout. Would he become a stud again since “this location” (Mr Outang’s location) has changed?
No. The “this location” will always be the same for Outang.
Bowie Knife: This dude is a stud. If there is an unbooted non-Melee Weapon in the opposing posse, Bowie Knife provides no bullet bonus and does not make this dude a stud.
Let’s say my dude has a Bowie knife (so they’re a stud). They join a shootout where my opponent has an unbooted non-melee weapon (so they’re now a draw). My opponent then hit my dude with Sun in your eyes. Does the “becomes a draw” part of Sun in your eyes take place?
He is currently a draw, so he doesn’t “become a draw”
If after that, the dude with the unbooted non-melee weapon leaves the shootout, does my dude becomes a stud again?
He will become a stud, because Bowie never made him a stud yet that shootout.
I’ll say this first. A dude is always going to be the last bullet type change that dude was given.
Traits like Outang and Bowie Knife are a little weird, which is why all this confusion has come about. Here’s how it will work though,
If a trait such as Outang leaves the shootout and returns, that trait CAN make dudes a stud again IF AND ONLY IF that dude has NOT been affected by another ability/trait that would change their bullet type. That trait must continue to be the most recent bullet type change. No other stud/draw changes can occur. If they do, they take precedence over Outangs trait and his will not apply to that dude.
For example, Outang leaves the shootout, reverting all your dudes with flasks and Baiju Jars back to draws. One dude gets hit by Sun in Yer Eyes that has a whiskey flask attached. Sun In Yer Eyes is now the most recent bullet type change that dude has received. When Outang shows up in the shootout in a later action, the dude hit by SIYE cannot be made a stud by Outangs trait anymore since they have received a more recent bullet type change. Any other dudes with whiskey flasks and baiju jars may return to their stud bullet type because they were not affected by a different bullet type change.
To say the same thing differently, just for the sake of being thorough:
Traits and Abilities that affect a dude’s bullets are applied in the order they are originally applied. The latest Trait or Ability to effect a dude’s bullet type determines what the dude’s bullet type currently is.
Conditional effects are immediately applied as soon as applicable. (Such as a Bowie Knife being attached to a Dude)
If a attachment’s trait has a conditional clause that prevents it from granting it’s bonus, such as Bowie Knife not granting it’s Stud Bonus when a non-melee weapon is opposing it, the bonus/penalty and clause are considered the same trait as far as timing is concerned.
Therefore, a trait from a weapon like Bowie Knife or Claws that can toggle on and off, is considered to have been applied to the attached dude as soon as the weapon attached, whether or not it is active at that time.
Conditional blanket effects from traits, such as Mr. Outang granting Stud to dudes at his location with A Baiju Jar or Whiskey Flask attached, apply themselves to each individual dude as soon as all conditions are met for that dude.
(Dudes with a Jar/Flask already attached would have the trait applied the moment they enter Outang’s posse. A dude already in Outang’s posse who attaches a Jar/Flask by an applicable shootout action has the trait applied as soon as it attaches.)
If the conditions cease to be met and are later met again, (such as the Dude or Outang leaving the shootout and reentering) anything that happened to that dude since the trait was first applied is considered to have happened to since the conditional trait was applied.
When a shooutout ends, effects that only apply in a shootout will wear off.
Previously taken noon actions (like Bad Company) and traits (like Outang) will make a dude a stud again after that shootout ends.
Traits that only apply in shootouts will reapply themselves and can make a dude a Stud again in future shootouts.
I’m sure you’ve thought through this and concluded that this is the best/most consistent solution to a pretty corner-case issue, but it does seem to throw up some kinda weird consequences if I’ve understood it correctly:
Let’s say Shizeng Lu (with a Whiskey Flask), He Fang (with a Whiskey Flask),and Mr. Outang all start the day in Town Square.
Then Shizeng Lu boots to move elsewhere.
Then my opponent starts a Desolation Row job in TS, which Fang+Outang oppose.
Then Outang gets Pistol Whipped home.
Then Shizeng Lu joints with Pinto.
Then Baiju Sue (with a Baiju Jar) joins with The Stakes Just Rose.
Then Dave “Slim” Gorman casts a Shootout Hex and discards it to make everyone in the shootout Draws.
Then Outang rejoins with Rabbit’s Lunar Leap.
So now:
He Fang remains a Draw because he was previously affected by Outang (even though he never actually gained any benefit, since he was already a Stud at the time)
Shizeng Lu remains a Draw because he was previously affected by Outang (even though he wasn’t even in a posse at the time)
Baiju Sue becomes a Stud because the game state/player remembers that she was bever affected by Mr. Outang
which seems a liitle weird, but like I said, it may be the lesser weird.
Let’s say Shizeng Lu (with a Whiskey Flask), He Fang (with a Whiskey Flask),and Mr. Outang all start the day in Town Square.
Then Shizeng Lu boots to move elsewhere.
Then my opponent starts a Desolation Row job in TS, which Fang+Outang oppose.
Then Outang gets Pistol Whipped home.
Then Shizeng Lu joints with Pinto.
Then Baiju Sue (with a Baiju Jar) joins with The Stakes Just Rose.
Then Dave “Slim” Gorman casts a Shootout Hex and discards it to make everyone in the shootout Draws.
Then Outang rejoins with Rabbit’s Lunar Leap.
So now:
He Fang remains a Draw because he was previously affected by Outang (even though he never actually gained any benefit, since he was already a Stud at the time)
Shizeng Lu remains a Draw because he was previously affected by Outang (even though he wasn’t even in a posse at the time) This one is incorrect; see below.
Baiju Sue becomes a Stud because the game state/player remembers that she was never affected by Mr. Outang
Correct play: Shizeng Lu hadn’t been effected by Outang yet during the shootout. It was during Noon.
Not sure I understand this. Shizeng Lu wasn’t at the location when the shootout starts, so why was he previously affected by Outang? Just because he was at the same location at some point? Do we really remember boardstate like this in DT? We’ve never had this before to my remembrance. Im terrible sorry, but this will be a great annoyance to track.
Absolutely, I realize that - I just didn’t find anything in the ruling that said that the ‘horizon’ for checking “has this dude been previously affected by this trait?” was at the start of the shootout (but that certainly makes things a bit simpler).
Hello, in FM fashion, necro-ing this thread. Also apologies to Forkbanger for asking too many questions about this despite him asking nicely to not.
Why does the shootout matter? I’m looking at the rules, and at Outang, and not sure I see how we get there.
Outang’s trait applies outside of the shootout, right? I could, for example, use a dude with a Whiskey Flask in Town Square with Outang to use “You’re a Daisy If You Do”, right?
If that is correct, then in the example put forward above, Shizeng must have already been given the stud effect from Outang at a previous point (during Noon). Dave makes him a draw, Outang rejoining could not make him a stud again.
