Follow up: Larry, Thunderboy, and A Slight Modification clarifications

Follow up on: Larry, Thunderboy, and A Slight Modification clarifications

Thanks for the (unofficial) follow up discussion on discord - since then we had a question about how to define these sorts of interactions.

It can probably be said that Larry’s last sentence maybe best fits within the first, since it’s basically an additional requirement, hence the need for the original rule question. However, there are several other cards that are laid out in a similar manner:

_Silas Aims (Exp 1): _
Shootout, Boot: Send an opposing dude with less bullets than Silas’s bounty home booted. If Silas is the mark, he ignores the boot cost of this ability.

I’m Your Hucklberry:
Cheatin’ Resolution: Your opponent chooses a dude in their posse. That dude joins your posse under your control for the remainder of the shootout. After the shootout ends, if that dude is still in play, send that dude home booted. If your hand is legal, you choose the opposing dude.

New Force Field, since errata:
Repeat Resolution, Pay X Ghost Rock: Raise your draw hand rank by X for this round. Your hand rank cannot exceed your opponent’s hand rank. You may not use any other card’s Cheatin’ Resolutions or Resolution effects.

And probably even coachwhip.

These are all examples of cards that have what are essentially additional and/or different requirements after the first sentence. All of these cards require you to read the entire card, and apply all requirements (even if its not in the first sentence), right? That seems very clear, and intuitive to new players.

So how do we explain to new players (or in the rules) the ruling with Thunder Boy/Mario Crane exp? His additional requirement, also not in the first sentence, only get’s applied if his ability has been previously successfully used. Why is he different from any of the above? All of the previous examples apply, whether the ability has been used or not (but not Thunder Boy/Mario Crane exp).

Do we do something like this when seeing if we can use an ability?

  1. Has the ability been used before? If not, proceed (unless this is a repeat ability, in which case it does not matter)
  2. Have the bold costs, and following first-sentence requirements been fulfilled? If so, continue.
  3. Have any additional requirements been fulfilled? Larry’s last sentence, etc.

Except, for Thunder Boy, it’s different. We don’t go to hypothetical step 3 until after it’s used. Instead, his step 3 looks like:
3) Has his ability been successfully used before? Only then, will the last sentence/requirement come into play.

Does that make sense where we are coming from? Why does it seem like an edge case, specific only to a card that says ‘cannot be used more than once per shootout’? To me, that makes this much more complicated than it should be. If the ruling stands with Thunder Boy, how do we explain that effect - is his last sentence a ‘prevention effect’ rather than a requirement, like all the other cards? If so, how is that defined?

To me it seems much easier to simply say ‘read the whole card every time, sometimes additional requirements are found after the first sentence, but it will be obvious when that is the case’, and while I’m moderately confident that doesn’t really change the intent or mechanics of any previous cards, I know it does change the Thunder Boy ruling at the very least.

Thanks for continuing to hear us out!
(there’s a few of us who have been discussing this on discord - some of these ideas/phrasing were taken from them)

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I’m NOT on rules team, just attempting to constructively add to the discussion.
The quoted cards have replacement/modifying effects at the end, not actual requirements.
These effects modify or replace how that first sentence should actually read, but you still resolve them in the same order.
That’s at least how I’ve always interpreted and explained them to other players.

That said, as written I agree with your logic on Thunderboy and Crane XP.
Neither say sucessfully, they just say “You may only use this ability once per shootout.”
ASM cancels the limit on the 1st use, but the limit should still be applied when you try to use it a 2nd time. Repeat lets you reuse it, but it’s still already been used once.

If that was design intent, it would be nice to get an FAQ entree that specifies “sucessfully used” on them.
And hopefully on similar future cards, rephrase it to: You may not use this ability again this shootout.

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Rules team will weigh in shortly.

Rules Team is working on the decision regarding this.

To clarify, they are reviewing only the interaction with A Slight Modification and Thunder Boy/Mario Crane XP and whether or not a reversal will be issued.

Currently, A Slight Modification does not stop these abilities because it cancels the whole text, which allows for the ability to be used again since it is a Repeat Shootout/Resolution.

The decision will be rendered after GenCon in a compendium update that will also include the prevention trumping cannot ruling recently made (Retribution and Shield of Faith) thus cleaning up a lot of older threads regarding that subject.

Thank you so much for your patience in this matter and presenting this concern.

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RT has confirmed a rules reversal.

A Slight Modification stops Thunder Boy and Mario Crane xp from using their ability again in the same shootout.

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